zm_smallmap_eh_v1

scoobie33

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Hey guys,

i recently came across the Hammer tool and tried it out for a few hours and ended up making a small zombie map.
The map holds 64 players and is very basic, though i don't know if the area is big enough for all of them.
Also 8 Secrets can be found:
7 Teleport Secrets:
- On top of the Tree
- On top of the letters
- On top of the watchtower
- Into the cage
- 3x escape into barrel area
1 Hidden Secret:
- Hidden pathway

I will be grateful for any kind of feedback that i can get and and who knows, maybe it could be tested on the servers. ;)

Kind Regards!

zm_smallmap_eh_v1.zip
@Havoc
Building InsideStairs.jpg Building Top.jpg
 

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SOUR

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If I told you, I'd have to kill you.
Hi there, Great to see new mappers! tho it looks very basic and too small for our servers, but im not a SPA/HA, but keep working man looks promising!
 
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Havoc

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Looks good, especially for a first project. Might be worth putting on v1 and v3 as special map that can be played by the admins at times where the server isn't nearly full.

If you can make it bigger that would be great tho, but i do like it so far :D
 
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WolfRam

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Hey, let me give you some input.
here are some fixes you need to do:

ZwZkBic.png

- Fix no props can be in the void, that is a leak and will mess up the map. atleast make a block and cover the feet of this tower 100%.
- can you see where the texture are overlapping eachother? Make sure the blocks you make dont overlap like that, it makes the map look amatureish and it messes with the compile-prosess

1taSMhq.png

- Anyone teleporting up there will most likely fall down, and if you are ct you will die. easy ways to die makes players complain.

2685QV0.png

- Again, ppl will fall down. and how are zm gonna get someone who can handle trees?

Bc3YSMf.png

- this needs to be inside the map, not inside the wall

r4itAte.png

-how are anyone gonna reach this?

CRtiVYf.png

- Not sure why this ladder is there? and its one of those places its again easy to fall down from teleporting.
- Another point is that secrets is something you need to be careful with, because usually only a few knows where there they are, and they exploit that and make other players angry. 1-2 per map is usually more than enough. and they shouldnt be too hidden either.

otherwise it looks interesting. make the "skybox-roof" a bit lower and fix some things, and i think havoc can try it.
PS: also, when making a campspot, its usually best if zm can come at it from atleast 2 places. there are exceptions, but its a good rule when making maps

PPS:
oYcmYvF.png

-custom files like agentsmith you should avoid putting in your map, unless you know how to add customfiles to a map.
-also that zombie is a HL2 prop, so it means you need to add that to your mapfile too. not everyone got hl2 installed.

here are some tools:
https://www.tophattwaffle.com/downloads/

you should also watch his videos on mapbuilding if you have questions
 
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scoobie33

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Thank you very much for the feedback, everyone!

@WolfRam
First off, thanks for your detailed feedback and suggestions.
Though, there are some points i want to address and also ask you about:
Could you specify how the water tower that sticks through the ground messes up the map? No Player will be actually able to see it ingame, if that's what youre talking about, therefore i didnt bother with it.
Also could you specify how the overlapsing ground and wall textures affect the map and/or gameplay of the players? I thought since nobody will see it anyways, i also didnt bother with it either.
If it really disturbs the game performance i'll adjust it.
Both of these things are easily adjustable but i simply didn't think there was a reason to adjust them at all.

The letters and tree that you are able to get onto via teleportation were meant to be really easy to fall off.
It was my way of balancing a maybe too overpowered secret.
I guess it could piss players off that are not aware of it, so i can definitely make it harder to fall off.
Also i don't really get what you meant with the "how are zm gonna get someone who can handle trees", if you meant that they will be easily shot off, that is true, but on the other hand it is just as easy for the zm to get the player standing on top of it, since they will be teleported right into him, if he kept standing there.

The teleport is supposed to be hard to reach.
You would jump on the cars and then on another player to reach it or you could use a vending machine.

The teleport on top of the water tower is actually nearly impossible to fall down from, i tested it.
The ladder was a last minute decision and i wasn't entirely sure about it either.
Can definitely be deleted.

The agent smith file comes with the elite hunter servers.
I do not own HL2 either, i'm actually pretty sure that the zombie also comes with the elite hunter servers, but i'm not entirely sure about that.
 
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WolfRam

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- The reason the tower should not stick through the map is that it create a "leak". The source system works with "blocks" and "entities". The blocks is what you create the world with, meaning the squares you make and create the box your map is inside and many of the objects inside the box.
KxDP9wK.png
tDllVyG.png

The first picture is the box that the map zm_canals_classic_eh_v1, i dont know if you know it. The 2nd picture is the map inside the box. And for the map to work at all, this "box" needs to be air-tight! there cannot be the slightest opening or you will have a "leak" into what is called "the black void". Think of it like a spaceship in space, and you dont want there to be any leaks into the ship. And as i said the "box" is created by "the Block Tool"
yNftmp3.png

Here you see 4 things highlighted. The chair, the lightbulb, part of the back wall and a crate. The light and the chair are entities. Entities are "pre-made stuff" that have a function to manipulate the map/environment(like the light makes more light) or they are objects/props with different properties for the players to interact with. The crate is a bit special, its originally a block with the textures of a crate, but with hammer you can make any block into an entity. Ctrl+T will make a block into an entity and if you want you can make that entity into many different things(like elevators, buttons, movable water and triggers)
But if any of these entities, made or pre-made, come in contact with "the black void" you have a leak. why? im not sure. i think it messes up the water reflections and alot of other stuff, but the result is that water becomes invisible and your fps goes crazy.

(To easier understand this next bit, you should look at the "quick about optimization" video to get more about what im talking about)
- The reason you should not create blocks ontop and into eachother is because when you compile the map(the thing you do before you play it) is because Hammer uses the blocks to create "visleafs".
APZsMCB.png
Zb5Oc12.jpg


(you can see the visleafs by first typing sv_cheats 1, then mat_leafvis 1 to see the current "block/leaf" you stand in. or you can type mat_leafvis 3 to see all the "blocks/leafs" the block you are in atm, can see(i will explain this).
pYEaclj.jpg


The Leafs/blocks you see are what hammer uses to optimize the maps with. basically what the leaf see, your computer/graphics card will render = fps/input. so if you have one big open map and you stand ontop of it. your computer will have to render everything that is happening all at once= alot of work= lower fps. A map like cbble is make in a smart way, as you can see the leafs dont go around the whole map, and that is because cbble is basically 3 big rooms connected with passages. so most of the time the leafs can only see what is inside 1 room at the time= less work. You can find some spots like the crates in the middle where you might have to render some of the other big rooms too because you can see the rooms through the passage.

So, what happens when you overlap blocks? well, it looks bad and it create more leafs and confused leafs. more leafs= bigger map in MB size. Blocks is the thing that create leafs and hammer uses the blocks to calculate what to pre-render when compiling. On the last picture on the low left side you can see the stairs and alot of red leafs/blocks and that is unnecessary. When hammer compiles a map, it look at every leaf/block on the whole map and registrers what that leaf "can see" and that means hammer stores information about every leaf and all the leafs it can see, on every leaf on the map. (when you play and an entity comes into a leaf that your leaf can see, the computer will have to render that real time, but when hammer compiles it pre-renders the light and textures and stuff beforehand). So you want your map not too have too many leafs and not tall leafs(because they can see far and will store more info you dont need) and if you overlap the blocks the compile-prosess also get confused and take more time and can in some cases stop. That is why every block you make(that isnt part of the box) you should make an entity(func_detail by default) that means it will be ignored when compiling and that block will not create a leaf.

- People dont like that other ppl know secrets and if only 1 know a secret the others cant do anything(if they are zm) to get that person.
- Players do usually dont like dying if its not their fault, and falling down is one of them, because teleporting isnt that stable. it depends on the speed and angle you touch the tele-trigger.
- also, secrets shouldnt be that hard to get too. it should be about knowing how to get there. most players lack much skills as zombies, and that makes secrets easy to exploit by better players.
- The tree issue is basically that climbing trees in CSS is hard and many have a hard time doing it, but ofcourse some are skilled. so it can make it really hard to get a skilled climber of trees. its a reason the trees on cbble is blocked off.
h6fN0Zz.png


- the teleport on the watertower is high above the tower and teleports are all about the angle and speed you enter the teleport it self. the wrong way and you fall down. Btw, the ladder should be there, maybe make it smaller?
- Agent smith and are indeed on the EH servers(not all i think) but EH have a habit of changing skins from time to time, so when they do, he will just become one big ERROR sign. the zombie is usually on every Riot server and some other servers too. you can get it anywere. but i dont think its on the EH servers. im not sure. Anyway its a chance you take if you dont add them to the mapfile.

Alot of typing and i hope i was clear about things. Most of this stuff can be found on youtube. The map looks interesting, needs some work, but in the end it would be fun to try :)

Here are some videos you should watch:


(quick about optimization)

(Long about optimization and leafs)

 

scoobie33

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@WolfRam
Thank you very much for your time and all the detailed information.
I wasn't aware of those "Leaks" and "Leafs/Blocks" you explained to me, so i will definitely remember these points for future adjustments.
I know most of the other stuff you explained though.

I get your point about the secrets but i simply love the idea behind it in general, therefore i made them.
I don't know if you tested any of the secrets out ingame (from my map) so i want to add that all the secrets i implemented are easily accessible and also at very obvious spots, where many players would definitely witness another player to enter them.
Though, if you've got the time and interest could you tell me the ones YOU personally would remove or adjust? If not i will look for myself to remove or adjust some of them.

The point about falling off is true and i did try every one of the teleports out from different angles to make sure they aren't overly hard to access.
The water tower is actually impossible to fall off via the teleport, you can try it for yourself.
If i make the ladder smaller you can not get onto the water tower because the roof as well as the invisible wall from the roof hangs over by a huge margin.
The tree does not have climbing spots that are hard to reach at all. If you teleport onto the tree you can only move downwards from there since all upper tree branches are not walkable or you stand on top of the tree, but then you'll definitely get caught by zombies using the teleport since they'll spawn right in your face.
Also there are only around 5-6 walkable branches at the lower area of the tree and 3 of them i made myself with invisible ground.

I'll include agent smith and the zombie into the mapfile.
 

NoMatt3r

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Thank you for your map.
Imo, 2 to max 3 secrets are sufficient because most players don't know the teleporters and get frustrated because they can't reach the humans then.
I found only one teleporter btw and it would kill me as ct as you can see in the demo
And is that the secret pathway?
20180904211908_1.jpg
 

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Paw

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Been nice to see all this activity in the mapping forum recently and thumbs up to @WolfRam for sharing all that helpful feedback, tips, videos etc. Maybe it could encourage more players to take a look at "mapping" if we gathered some of it and put it in a thread somewhere as it's not that easy finding information around the subject. Atleast it wasn't when I tried to get into mapping as all I found was some videoes by 3kliksphilip and I hadn't even heard of TopHATTwaffle before so will probably take a look at some of his videos now.
 

scoobie33

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@NoMatt3r Thank you for testing it out.
I guess it is definitely difficult to not die from the teleport if you don't know the exact position.
Especially if u enter it unknowingly.. at least it seems like you entered it by accident the first time?
I will rethink and adjust the teleport secrets that you can fall off.

Yes, that is the secret pathway. It's a tiny camper spot actually but can be jumped into pretty quickly by good zm players. The pathway is very short.
I left the secret pathway visible so players can see it if they are standing at the east side of the wall or on top of those stones that you were standing on.
I thought it would be nice for players to spot the secret that way and investigate it.
If it looks too unprofessional i can hide it.

@Captain Chewbacca Thank you very much :)

@Paw It was really easy to learn all the basics and stuff. It took me only a few hours to make this map by watching videos or reading through the internert.
 

scoobie33

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Update V2
- all leaks fixed
- overlapsing walls fixed
- light added inside hidden passages
- visibility of hidden passage changed from the outside (you can now see who and how many are inside the passage from the outside)(helpful for zm to spot campers)
- overall map size enlarged
- map divided by another wall + hint texture
- letter teleport fixed (harder to fall off now)
- tree teleport fixed (harder to fall off now)
- unecessary barrel teleport removed
- ladder on water tower adjusted (cant climb on top of the tower anymore)(easier to get to the area below)
- custom files removed
- environment embellished with bushes, benches etc.
- overall more stuff added
 

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SOUR

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If I told you, I'd have to kill you.
I tested your map now for 5min, i like it and it looks like a decent map actually! one thing tho, i think the boxes flying in the air might be a to OP spot for cts and i think all the cts will stack there haha.
 

Lotus

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Canadia eh?
Just an FYI, in the future we only need you to upload the .bsp file, not the entire folder :p
 

scoobie33

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@SOUR Thank you! Yeah, i thought the boxes are pretty op too, that's why i made so many ways to approach them but maybe it's not enough. I thought about adding boxes from the other side as well or simply removing a few of the highest ones.

@Lotus Allright, i thought i would make it easier for you that way, if you guys want to do some changes to the map yourself. I couldn't figure it out how to make props that are solid, shoot-pushable and e-pushable, like the normal vending machines on every zm map. If they were e-pushable i would just glitch through them every time.
The way i made them now, they are solid but not e-pushable, instead you can push them by making contact with them or shooting them. I hoped you guys might be able to change that.
There are not many movable props so it won't take long to change them.
 

Lotus

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Spots like this are probably a tad OP, I know you said there is a TP somewhere for the top part of the tree but for people who know their way around a tree (which isn't many), spots like these seem like places that could be held fairly easily with a shotgun.
20180909124122_1.jpg

This may just be a thing for me but I don't like that you can just run around the edge of the whole map like this
20180909124402_1.jpg

I can see running around the edge of the map leads to this spot but this place seems absurdly OP
20180909124758_1.jpg

A few of these props have no/strange clips so when you go on them the game gets all jittery
20180909124854_1.jpg

As Sour said this spot is definitely way too OP. Would be very easy for a couple good players with shotguns to hold
20180909124917_1.jpg

Maybe a few too many movable props in this room? Could be easy to barricade
20180909125138_1.jpg

This area may be a little too large, it's much bigger than the same spot on rush which is already difficult to deal with for zm's
20180909125459_1.jpg

May be too easy to block this area with these cades
20180909125532_1.jpg

I don't understand the purpose of this spot
20180909125614_1.jpg
These sorts of signs should be on the edge of the map so you don't see the back end of the sign like this
20180909125707_1.jpg


Idk about the issue you are having with props so hopefully someone else can help you with that.

Like nomatter said there are probably too many secrets on your map, 2 or 3 should really be the maximum. That many secrets and with very few people knowing them it would almost certainly upset many players. I played around your map for around 30 minutes and didn't find any teleports...
 

scoobie33

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@Lotus Ty for testing it out, especially that long.
Nevermind the prop thing, i tested the map again after i played on the v3 server and now it works just fine.

I will go into detail about your points:

If zombies stack on top of the fence and/or wall you can get the player there rather easily.

I thought that going around the edge is a cool idea for players to faster get from point a to b and to add diversity in the routes players have to take to reach some places.
Also otherwise it would be way too easy for zm, the map is already really easy for zm.

Zm can stack each other on top of the container or can jump down from the watertower to get players on the pole.

Yes, the fruit crates have weird collision models. But i just left them there. You can still get on top of it but only if you jump onto another player or prop.
If you want, i can remove them.

Yeah, the higher boxes are quite op i will adjust that.

In the room zm can destroy the wall where u see the light coming in, so this is actually a really difficult spot to hold for cts.

Zm can get on top of it from every angle if they stack upon each other, also if it's too many cts edgers will definitely take care of it.

I will remove 1 vending machine and reposition the other.

May i ask what you mean with that?

Yeah, well i guess it doesn't look really professional but in the end i don't think it's that important.

There is a teleport to get on top of the tree, on top of the letters and on top of the water tower.
Also on top of the letters there is another teleport to get into the cage.
I could maybe make a video to all the secrets and post it in a thread?
 
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scoobie33

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the spot just trapped you? i had to noclip out
Well, the metal bars are destroyable if you want to get out that way you will also make a way for zm to get in. It is supposed to be a spot for cts to camp. The lasers can be turned on/off from within the room(the lower button) and from the outside (a button next to the wooden house)