Handled+ [CS:S ALL/CS:GO ZM] Protest a punishment: Dataworm

[Dataworm]

Gamemode [CS:S ALL/CS:GO ZM]
Ingame name DataWorm
SteamID STEAM_0:0:19138721

Ban/Gag reason Provocative behaviour, suiciding for kills/teaming
Desired outcome Lift my punishment
Statement of grounds
I suicided as always but of course not team to kill someone or anything like that. As a matter of fact this is not the kind of map where you simply teamkill and and then spawn behind humans and kill them. The demo also shows clearly that there has not been any attempt like that to surprise humans and get kills that way.

Of course Paw loves to talk about provocative behavior whenever I don't agree with him. But it was never my intention to provoke him and as always I tried to talk with him in a calm and polite way to explain my point of view.

I would like to request an unban and also would like to ask paw to stop banning or kicking me for stuff that is not against the rules. When he got a real proof that I did something like what he says then okay, but always being punished just for false statements is really annoying.

 

[Dataworm]

Oh and maybe an ha/spa could also take a few minutes and take a look into this case and provide some feedback to clarify what is actually punishable and when in case there are some misunderstandings.

 

[Paw]

Hi, data.

"I suicided as always but of course not team to kill someone or anything like that."
Exactly. In this way you were ruining the gameplay by not following the game objective as you by suiciding are helping the enemy team(zms) to kill the humans (previously teammates.).
"Ruining the game play means not following the normal objectives of the game, an example would be teaming with the opposite team which is totally wrong.".

"When you joined our Server's for the first time you accepted our set of rules, or better said you accept it everytime you join our Servers." -DeltaForce (SPA/Staff) from someone elses "Protest a punishment" some weeks ago.

In addition you've played here longer than me (5-6+ years) as well as you're an ex-admin.
Which means that you by now should know most of the rules and if not you should atleast know to follow instructions (In this case what I essentially told you not to do: Continue suiciding on purpose.) and not try to provoke admins in any way (You kept suiciding as human and acted disrespectful towards me as if you were unaware of our rules to follow admins instructions while you were yelling at me in chat.).

"as always I tried to talk with him in a calm and polite way"

As a gameserver admin I try my best to handle every situation that may occur ingame after the admins' "gameserver knowledgebase" while also listening to what SPA/HA has got to say about how things are supposed to be handled about things that may not be listed there. This is what one SPA has told me about suiciding: "its right on maps like canals every suicide is like teamkill, because i dont expect you to watch every suicider what he's doing next. Suiciding in general isnt forbidden."

But imagine this scenario happening as if it were to happen on forgotten_town something which has happened a lot: 40~ humans alive, people have started hunting, last zombies are down in the bunker thingy (If someone dies to falling dmg or whatever they might spawn right next to the entrance/opening which results in people shooting the zm into eachother and mass teamkilling.). Would it really be better if I ignore the fact that someone might have suicided on purpose to troll/ruin peoples game experience? Is it really that different from maps like canals etc or do you find it fair of me to freeze the player with a warning e.g. "Do not attempt to teamkill in any way" etc. the instant I see someone dying (Maybe not early in the round as it's more likely someone would teamkill/team when there's less zombies alive.). If it was an accident the player will explain themselves say it wasn't on purpose and that they fell down somewhere which then leads to me telling them to be more careful in the future as they might get suspected of teamkilling and that it's punishable. Small maps "like canals", little italy aren't the only maps people do this so I don't see why I shouldn't react the same way on this map as well.

Spoiler: img

I don't think the ban should be removed as it's not the first time I've encountered you(r) trying to ruin the gameplay by suicide/provocative behaviour as I still got a demo of you on canals, but if SPA/HA finds the ban unjust in any way or something they will probably remove it from your record.

 

[Dataworm]

Hi Paw,

thank you for the detailled feedback. First of all, I just want to repeat that I did not attempt to provoke in any way and surely did not yell at you. If you are referring to this "wtf?!" message, that was related to the gameplay and had nothing to do with our discussion nor would I really call it "yelling at someone". I was hoping the issue was resolved after we had out trouble a few weeks ago and yeah I continued to suicide but not to provoke but because we disagree and I am still convinced that I did not break a rule. Well apart from not following admin's orders. Which is why I would like to get some ha/spa to clarify if what I do should be punished or not.

Not following the game objective is also a fair point but basically not a very useful rule. If you do zombie trains, drive in sleigh, just idle, not defend when zombie is running after you, just look around the map, watch player sprays... All those things are basically not following the game objective but neither got nor should be bannable. Suiciding in general (from my point of view) belongs to these kind of things. But as SPA told it is not forbidden in general.

Regarding your spoiler: Maybe at the start of the round you spawn there. Correct me if I am mistaken but as far as I remember, I never ever respawned in that place, respawn is usually behind that one big building near the crane. Usually no humans camp there (but sometime they spawn there as visible on the demo and I left that guy alone) and it takes some time to get from there to human spots. So yeah suiciding to kill humans is really quite useless on this map. Going down into that hole and trying to get a human when they open the door is much more effective.

Anyway you made a fair point. It makes no sense to discuss and start defining a list of what maps are fine for suicide or not. I also understand your struggle that it is hard to keep an eye on players and and see what they are actually doing after suicide. But as annoying it might be, that is what admin usually has to do. We don't ban a player cause 5 other players said they saw someone breaking a rule without proof. Usually players don't even get banned for "attempting to teamkill" if they failed to do so. So I see no reason why I should get a ban or punishment because after my suicides there is a chance I might use it to break a rule. If you really think so, feel free to go undercover, use the observe command and try to find evidence that I do this for my own advantage.
But as you said, I play here for many years (in fact around 10 years I think), we also know each other for quite some time (and never had issues until ~1 year ago I think). I was known for my suicides long before I became admin or before we met the first time. In all those years no admin ever said anything against my suicides and nearly everyone knows I do it for fun and not to gain an advantage or anything like that. Apart from that many people know that I don't care about stats and that I am most likely one of those that care most about fair play in game. So I think I deserve at least a bit of trust and some closer inspection before being punished for something I never did.

I don't care that much about the ban itself, I banned myself far more often. But I made the fault to let it go when I got my first ban (rules were much stricter 5 years ago and apparently no warnings/punishments needed before ban) because it was just a short ban. If i keep the ban in my list for "not following admin instructions" then it might be deserved and I am fine with that but everything else is simply a false accusation. But more than that I simply want to find a solution for the future to make sure that we don't end up in this situation for a third time.

Thanks for your time!

P.S. You mentioned some demo on canals map. Not sure what it is about but when you think it is relevant here, please feel free to share the demo.

 

[Christian Reinbacher]

*censored content by banned user*

 

[Dataworm]

I guess today is payday...

When the dark side has cookies, count me in! Anyway thanks for the support but please keep in mind that this forum also has some special rules which includes that only involved people should post in a thread like this. In other words, only admins, the reporter and reported players might take part in the discussion. Or maybe also whitnesses in rare occasions when they have to add something useful.

Regarding the teamkilling question, even between admins there are sometimes differences in what they call "teamkilling". For many admins like me, this is when you actually kill someone of your own team (like jumping on his head in 4way). Then there are situations like "edging on purpose to kill teammates". Some admins also call this teamkilling and I think it is similar to what I was accused of (suiciding on purpose to kill teammates). I rather consider it as a special form of teaming cause the edging human is basically helping the enemy to take down that camping spot or simply to gain better score. So yeah sometimes you might see teamkilling as a ban reason for stuff like edging but usually I think it is best to be more specific and simply call it "edging on purpose" or something. And even though I didn't do anything apart from suiciding, Paw correctly added this detail in ban reason of how he thinks I was teamkilling so I guess that should be enough to avoid further misunderstandings. ;-)

 

[DeltaForce]

Hello, as wished the SPA Team will leave a final Word here.

Lets hold this short:

-Ban will stay on Record but will get a Notice, the next ban should not be longer than 4 hours.

In General:

Its not forbidden to suicide in any way aslong the Gameplay for other Players wont get ruined or impaired, like Teaming or Teamkill would do.
If an Admin tell's you to stop with whatever, you stop. If you think the Admin is wrong in this Case, still follow his instructions and contact a Staff Member with Demo or Screenshots. Or if its something serious open an Abuse Report.
Avoid big discussions inside the Game Chat, this will mostly lead to misunderstandings or send the Signal of any kind of disrespect.

It was not completely wrong to please you to stop Suiciding, since its to much for 1 Admin to control your Ingame behavior, even as "trusted" person who dont do Teamkill's. To prevent this Paw was allowed to ask you to stop it, what you did not so the Ban for 1 Hour was legit.
On the other Hand, the "first" Ban for 4 Hours were to long so he got "reduced" afterwards, also it needs alot of input's to Ban for not following the Game Objective, this is more like a headline for things like Teaming, Teamkill, helping the other Team by hindering your own Team, for Zombies as example, push away any Boxes which are used as Ladder's to infect a Camping Spot.

Regards
Delta