[CS:S ALL/CS:GO ZM] Protest a punishment: Saddam HusSein - KinG!

[Saddam HusSein - KinG!]

Gamemode [CS:S ALL/CS:GO ZM]

Ingame name Commander - Saddam King of Server

SteamID 0:1:41847384

Ban/Gag reason "inappropriate language"

Desired outcome Lift my punishment

Statement of grounds
I will repeat here what I said in another topic, because it´s the same subject: my gag which was unjust and unreasonable and at least unreasonably long.

I asked admins about the boundaries of what is allowed to say and what is not allowed to say. The reason for this is that it is not always clear what can be considered offensive or not. As a matter of "testing" I asked the question whether or not it is allowed to say "fu** islam". I immediately got gagged bc that was insulting according to Dhoudz. And I agree. The funny thing is however, that EVERYONE here knows I'm muslim, so my statement OBVIOUSLY was not meant to offend anyone. I wanted to know the boundaries because as Dhoudz explained it to me, it was not acceptable. He said we can know the boundaries by seeing whether or not we get a warning first from the admins when saying certain stuff. WTH?? That is no way how rules and regulations work lol. THE SERVER needs to make CLEAR rules, you cannot tell players to say stuff and see if they get warned first to know the boundaries. Makes 0 sense. I was not gagged because of insulting/homphobic etc., I was apparently gagged because admin did not understand my conversation. Which is a shame because when we know CLEARLY what is allowed to say on this server and what is not allowed to say, we can easily proceed without debating whether a ban/gag was just or not.

I will emphasize that I completely understand and agree that it is not allowed to insult people and I will refrain from that of course. But the problem is, sometimes there are things I say that are not clear whether they are allowed or not. What I do know however, is that as soon as I say (for example) that there are only 2 genders, ppl start saying i'm homophobic and such. Veganism the same. Then people start to paint a bad picture of me, while my conversations are not about personal attacks towards people. My opinion is that saying for example that veganism is bad for your health should be permissable to say. Similar to saying LGBTQ movement (not the people itself) is a harmful and a bad movement. Here in the Netherlands we had the same discussion. Geert Wilders said very bad things about Islam and the Highest Court in the Netherlands ruled that insulting Islam was not forbidden because it was not DIRECTLY meant to insult the people but to address the issues he has with the faith Islam. That is also what I am doing in regards to veganism for example. Anyway, what I wanted to know is the boundaries of such subjects. Why not make a post on the forum in which admins explain the boundaries (you could also include examples of what is or what is not allowed etc). If nothing is allowed to say, I will know and I will likely leave this server bc I dont want to play on a China communist server (as a figure of speech), but on a server on which it is allowed to express opinions provided they are not directly meant to insult people.

To show you guys it's very easy to make rules, you can say for example that it is not allowed to be racist towards or to discriminate PEOPLE on the basis of religion, political views, sexual orientation or race. That's the ONLY matter that can create a criminal offence in real life. So you can not say for example, fuc muslims, fuc vegans, or fuc gays, but you CAN say i don't like islam or I don't like the LGBT movement. How are the last two examples in any way to be called racist or discrimination? It is allowed in any country with a rule of law and as such, it should not be forbidden to say such things. As I said to Soup, I am doing you guys a favour by discussing this, you know why? 1) it is the most logic way to look at this matter, which will make your jobs as admins much easier, 2) people understand better what is allowed to say and what not and 3) people will actually like you guys more, bc i can tell you guys one thing, your reputations as admins is pretty bad I can tell ya. Maybe this will make it a bit better.

Anyway, please find attached the chatlog from 25 minutes before I was gagged. You can CLEARLY see that i'm asking questions to get clarity on the boundaries. My chatlog is in no way someone who wants to attack people or insult, read it honestly and tell me I'm applying bad language. Thats just not true and not being honest. Context is everything, say fuc islam on its own ofc is bad language but within the context of my questions AND me being a muslim: how can you consider that to be offensive? Impossible and that's why my gag was unjust. Also, I was not warned I would get a TWO WEEKS gag. I mean, 2 hours I would understand (even though I disagree that there are ANY reasons to gag me, but let's say we assume there are), but two weeks? come on admin...

 

[Dhoudz]

Hey Saddam,

thanks for your unban request. I will try to make it clear and obvious.

The rule is: English or German only please. No [Swearing] [Insulting] [Spamming] [Foul Language]
I am sure you have seen this and i do not understand why this needs to be explained, however i will do you this favour.

We mostly ignore minor insults (noob, idiot, etc.), unless a player feels offended and tells us to do something.

For insults/inappropriate language you will be warned, for heavy insults/racism (or similar) you will be gagged without warning.
We do not have a list and i will not give you examples of what is considered a insult or heavy insult.
Just ask yourself "Is this ok to say?". If the answer is "Maybe not", you better should not say it, if the answer is "Definitely not", DO NOT SAY IT.
This should be common sense.

The gag length is increased with each gag (1 hour, 2 hours, 4 hours, ...).
Heavy insults/racism/similar or a lot of gags in a short period might lead to longer gags.

Besides of the rule mentioned above, we avoid certain topics in chat (religion - politics/war - gender/sexual orientation).
We are a diverse gaming community, we tolerate and respect everyone. If you want to discuss these topics, the chat/forum is not the right place.


This being said, now to your case.

Why did i gag you?
I considered what you said "Definitely not ok", thats why you got gagged.
I do not accept your reason "you were just asking questions" or it is ok because you are muslim.
Being a person of colour also does not allow you to use the n-word here.

Why 2 weeks?
You have a total of 13 gags and your last one was 1 week, so this one is 2 weeks.
The next one (i hope this wont happen) will be 1 month.

 

[Saddam HusSein - KinG!]

Hey Saddam,

thanks for your unban request. I will try to make it clear and obvious.

The rule is: English or German only please. No [Swearing] [Insulting] [Spamming] [Foul Language]
I am sure you have seen this and i do not understand why this needs to be explained, however i will do you this favour.

We mostly ignore minor insults (noob, idiot, etc.), unless a player feels offended and tells us to do something.

For insults/inappropriate language you will be warned, for heavy insults/racism (or similar) you will be gagged without warning.
We do not have a list and i will not give you examples of what is considered a insult or heavy insult.
Just ask yourself "Is this ok to say?". If the answer is "Maybe not", you better should not say it, if the answer is "Definitely not", DO NOT SAY IT.
This should be common sense.

The gag length is increased with each gag (1 hour, 2 hours, 4 hours, ...).
Heavy insults/racism/similar or a lot of gags in a short period might lead to longer gags.

Besides of the rule mentioned above, we avoid certain topics in chat (religion - politics/war - gender/sexual orientation).
We are a diverse gaming community, we tolerate and respect everyone. If you want to discuss these topics, the chat/forum is not the right place.


This being said, now to your case.

Why did i gag you?
I considered what you said "Definitely not ok", thats why you got gagged.
I do not accept your reason "you were just asking questions" or it is ok because you are muslim.
Being a person of colour also does not allow you to use the n-word here.

Why 2 weeks?
You have a total of 13 gags and your last one was 1 week, so this one is 2 weeks.
The next one (i hope this wont happen) will be 1 month.

Hello Dhoudz,

Thank you for your explanation. I want to say you brought some more clarity to the subject. I do want to emphasize however, that I already said I know the rule and I understand it, but that there are certain things a person can say which are unclear whether they are allowed or not. If you read my ungag request properly, you can clearly see I want clarity as to the boundaries. Your explanation: "Just ask yourself "Is this ok to say?". If the answer is "Maybe not", you better should not say it, if the answer is "Definitely not", DO NOT SAY IT." helps a lot, so thank you but if I apply it to some things I have said in the past, it is not clear why I got warned/gagged. For example saying veganism is terrible for your health does sound "OK" to me and CERTAINLY not "definitely not". As such, I will use your guideline to determine what I can say or what I cannot say. Thank you.

As to my gag: if you read the chatlog you can very clearly see my genuine questions about the boundaries. Did I go too far by asking you the question which got me gagged? Of course it's clear that it is not allowed, but I wanted to "test" the boundaries. There is a BIG difference in me asking questions and someone just blatantly insulting another person. I'm sad you do not accept this difference, because I am genuine in my questions. I have played cs 1.6 and css for many many years and many servers do have clear rules regarding these issues, so that is why I'm so pushing on this subject so much. Also, your example regarding the n-word is not completely fair, since again, I was not just saying that on itself, but I siad what I said within the context of the debate regarding the boundaries. Context is everything and I'm sad you fail to see this.

My older gags were all the result of similar issues. I am not a troll or somebody who wants to just insult others. I have an outspoken opinion on some subjects and it's sad a person gets gagged for saying stuff even though it's an opinion NOT directed to a person (but usually to some kind of group identity ("vegans" for example)) and NOT being discriminatory on any grounds (race, beliefs, gender, sexual orientation) towards a person. Just contuining gagging me and building up the length does not make any sense to me, if a server fails to address the issues a genuine person addresses (i.e. unclarity as to what is allowed to say, again the boundaries not the obvious cases). I hope I will not get gagged again for little reason, and I salute you Dhoudz for trying to explain matters. Please next time you want to gag me, bear in mind I'm a long time player with genuine opinions in this crazy world. Peace out, KING!

 

[Dhoudz]

An insult is an insult and everyone knows what is considered an insult. No matter if light or heavy you should never insult another person.
Just because we usually dont mind minor insults, does not mean it is a good thing.

I know exactly what you wanted to do. You tested my boundaries and i showed you the consequences.

If you want to know something specific, our forum is the right place and not the ingame chat.
Remember admins do this voluntarily. If they are ingame, it is most likely because they want to play themself.

I can just guess your previous gags were the result of you not listening to admins.
This is a very simple rule, if an admin tells you to cut it, just cut it.

I cannot stress this enough, we do not care about your opinion about those topics.
You can be for it, against it or change your mind from day to day, whatever you like.
But if an admin tells you to stop, you should stop. Wether it is because you are flooding the chat or other players feel distracted.

if you want to discuss those things, there are podcasts/youtube-channels/... , where you can share it in the commect section.

 

[Saddam HusSein - KinG!]

An insult is an insult and everyone knows what is considered an insult. No matter if light or heavy you should never insult another person.
Just because we usually dont mind minor insults, does not mean it is a good thing.

I know exactly what you wanted to do. You tested my boundaries and i showed you the consequences.

If you want to know something specific, our forum is the right place and not the ingame chat.
Remember admins do this voluntarily. If they are ingame, it is most likely because they want to play themself.

I can just guess your previous gags were the result of you not listening to admins.
This is a very simple rule, if an admin tells you to cut it, just cut it.

I cannot stress this enough, we do not care about your opinion about those topics.
You can be for it, against it or change your mind from day to day, whatever you like.
But if an admin tells you to stop, you should stop. Wether it is because you are flooding the chat or other players feel distracted.

if you want to discuss those things, there are podcasts/youtube-channels/... , where you can share it in the commect section.

Your initial response was much more logical and it seems you are not really responding to my points, but just wanting to tell me something which everybody already knows: insulting is not allowed. That is something we all know, I was talking about the boundaries, not the rule itself. The fact that in your earlier response, you explained the difference between something a player says that is "OK", "Maybe not OK" or "Definitely not" already demonstrates that you yourself see that there is a difference in how to treat certain opinions. The relevant question to me is; what qualifies as an insult? Once it is established the opinion is an insult, you can discuss whether or not it is "light" or "heavy". But that's not my point, of course an insult is an insult. The relevant subject matter to me was "what qualifies as an insult" and more specific the boundaries of that rule. So you are missing the point.

And no: i did not want to test YOUR boundaries. I do not care about what you personally think, i care about the SERVER boundaries. Your view on this is irrelevant, so do not make yourself more important than it is. I just hoped that you would properly answer my question when I asked my question to you which got me gagged. Since you an admin, I would have hoped you would know more about boundaries than just say to me "say it and if you get warned you know it's not allowed".

You remark that you do not stress enough that "we" don't care about my opinion, makes little sense to me. First of all, who is the royal "we"? Did you conduct a poll and asked all players? I am sure not, so not sure who the we is here. If even one of the 64 players would care about my opinion , you point would already be invalid. So you are taking chances here by that claim. Likely, it's invalid. Second, I could also say the same: I do not care much if others do not like my opinion. That is not the point I made at all when I asked about the boundaries. Did I ever say please people listen to my opinion? No, i just want to say what I want to say: whether someone likes it or approves it is not my concern. So you can continue stressing whatever you want in that regard, but it's not relevant at all. Instead, try stressing what is and what is not allowed to say on this server. Would serve us all a lot more. Let's agree to disagree because this is going nowhere. Sad to see but that's life. Peace, KING!

 

[Dhoudz]

I will try one last time, so you understand. No insult is allowed at all, some are just tolerated. The solution is simple, just do not insult.
We have guidelines for admins, but it is up to the admin to decide whether it is tolerable, requires a warning or should be punished.
So in a way my boudaries are the server boundaries and my view is relevant.

If you feel unfairly treated you can make an unban request like you did and explain yourself. in case of doubt, a special admin/head admin decides.
In your case there is no doubt as you said yourself above >>Did I go too far by asking you the question which got me gagged? Of course it's clear that it is not allowed<<
You don't break rules to see how far you can go or to find out what you are allowed to call other players.

As i said above we are a small community and do not have a list / detailed law book.
I wont tell you "you are allowed to say this or that", once more: JUST DO NOT INSULT.

The "we" is the admin-team, because "we" make sure that the rules are followed on the servers.
What you dont seem to understand is, we do not want players to talk about certain topics in general. It is about the topic, not anyones opinion.
We also dont have a list for those topics, i mentioned some above.

 

[Saddam HusSein - KinG!]

I will try one last time, so you understand. No insult is allowed at all, some are just tolerated. The solution is simple, just do not insult.
We have guidelines for admins, but it is up to the admin to decide whether it is tolerable, requires a warning or should be punished.
So in a way my boudaries are the server boundaries and my view is relevant.

If you feel unfairly treated you can make an unban request like you did and explain yourself. in case of doubt, a special admin/head admin decides.
In your case there is no doubt as you said yourself above >>Did I go too far by asking you the question which got me gagged? Of course it's clear that it is not allowed<<
You don't break rules to see how far you can go or to find out what you are allowed to call other players.

As i said above we are a small community and do not have a list / detailed law book.
I wont tell you "you are allowed to say this or that", once more: JUST DO NOT INSULT.

The "we" is the admin-team, because "we" make sure that the rules are followed on the servers.
What you dont seem to understand is, we do not want players to talk about certain topics in general. It is about the topic, not anyones opinion.
We also dont have a list for those topics, i mentioned some above.

I'm sorry, but you don't understand the point at all. Tried to explain it many times, but to no avail. Will do it one last time, and this is my last message here.

Situation 1
Person A says X on the chat --> Does X qualify as an insult?

Situation 2
Person B says X on the chat and it's clearly an insult --> is this insult to be allowed yes or no (is the insult light or heavy in other words)

You seem to focus on situation 2. While we agree on the fact that an insult is an insult, that is NOT my point. My point is sometimes it's not clear if something qualifies as an insult (therefore my question relates to Situation 1).

That's all. Everything you say is based on your misunderstanding of the issues and not worthwhile to respond to with all due respect.

 

[Dhoudz]

It seems you havent read my replies, because I answered all your questions, also Situation 1.

Definition of insult: "to say or do something to someone that is rude and offensive" (Cambridge Dictionary)
Either the player tells us he feels offended or "we" (the admins) find it offensive, then it is an insult.

No insult is allowed at all, not even "noob". We just tolerate it. If you exeggerate it or think
"admin warned me, but im still allowed to call him tolerated insults", you could get a gag for this as well.

No, I will not tell you what we tolerate and what not, because it is a matter of the circumstances (e.g. gag-history)
and, this is even more important, we do not want to give players an "allowance" to use certain insults.

 

[Saddam HusSein - KinG!]

It seems you havent read my replies, because I answered all your questions, also Situation 1.

Definition of insult: "to say or do something to someone that is rude and offensive" (Cambridge Dictionary)
Either the player tells us he feels offended or "we" (the admins) find it offensive, then it is an insult.

No insult is allowed at all, not even "noob". We just tolerate it. If you exeggerate it or think
"admin warned me, but im still allowed to call him tolerated insults", you could get a gag for this as well.

No, I will not tell you what we tolerate and what not, because it is a matter of the circumstances (e.g. gag-history)
and, this is even more important, we do not want to give players an "allowance" to use certain insults.

I heavily disagree but it´s fine. Quick response:

1) looking at the Cambridge dictionary does not solve the issue. Why do you think lawyers spend hours and hours in court cases trying to argue whether a certain fact qualifies as a certain legal qualification. Just saying look at the dictionary may solve easy issues, not the complex ones (such as what I gave as an example, saying for example I heavily dislike veganism);
2) "Either the player tells us he feels offended or "we" (the admins) find it offensive". That's a completely arbitrary way of measuring whether or not a rule is broken. Not how it should work imho;
3) looking at gag history as "Circumstances" should not really matter and definitely creates bias towards players. It's also not how it works in real life. Every case is on its own and should be judged as such, using clear and objective criteria which are known to the players, not the "feeling" or opinion of how others feel. Thats terrible decision making.

Peace, king out!