Denied+ Abuse Report: Brot

[mSyy]

Admin's Name Brot

Time and date 13:30

Server Elite Hunterz V3

Description
Just to give some context before the abuse happened. There is a known troll by the name of GhostCap who basically does what a troll does: close doors on teammates/ use elevator w/o waiting for teammates/ knife zombies towards teammates etc.
The map we were playing was zm_4way. This individual was given several warnings to stop inflating prior to the incident. When the round began i got to the bottom elevator and I saw Ghostcap coming towards the elevator. I knew what hew was gonna do which was press the button and leave the teammates behind. So i pressed it hoping ghost would miss it and let him have his karma but he got on unfortunately. Brot saw this and warned me about this, and i explained why i did it, and he dismissed the situation afterwards. 15 minutes later i got to the elvator again and waited for my teammates, ghost was the first to appear and instantly pressed the button as expected. When i got to the top, Brot noclipped in front of me and said my name. I immediately told him that it was GhostCap, and also told him to check the log for proof. He didn't check the logs and decided to freeze me Instead of Ghost. I told Brot multiple times that it was GhostCap but he decided it was best to ignore me. I was mocked by GhostCap and the rest of the server players. I left the server 10 minutes later.

Given GhostCaps history of griefing other players I would have imagined it was an easy decision to kick him from the server for inflating given with the mountains worth of evidence that was against him. It would have been the most obvious person from anyone's perspective with evidence or not.

Now a responsible Admin would weigh in the evidence before making an appropriate decision, that is the job of the Admin. I'm asking for a senior Admin to intervene in this matter and bring Brot on here so he can explain himself.

Reporting an abuse is a serious matter. Do you hold all the proofs requested for an abuse request? Yes

 

[Brot]

Hello mSyy,
I would like to present you here my view of the incident.
First of all, I would like to go into your context.
The player GhostCap is not known to me as a troll. Maybe it is because he was banned for a long time. As you have already described the first situation for me there. You have to take the player GhostCap the possibility to get the elevator the button to go up pressed. That this is a violation of the rules should be well known to you as a regular player. For this behavior I have warned you. In the following situation, which occurred exactly 9 minutes later, I saw you again in the same Situiaton on the elevator standing next to the button to go up. Again the player GhostCap came running, but this time he made it onto the elevator. Other players who also wanted to reach the elevator stayed down. As a result, I freeze you to punish you for your misbehavior.

Your argumentation that I should look into the logs is unfortunately not possible for me, I can not see who pressed the button. Since the situation has played out exactly like the previous only with the difference that GhostCap it this time on the
elevator, you were punished because other players who could not escape from the zombis by riding up the elevator were infected.

I have of course weighed the evidence and have come to the conclusion that you pressed the button again as in the situation before to prevent GhostCap from getting on the elevator.

I ask you in the future to behave according to the rules of the servers, then I as an admin do not have to intervene in such situations.
I hope you understand my view on the situation. But I have already explained this to you in the game.

I hope I could give you so an insight on my sure of the situation.

 

[mSyy]

"The player GhostCap is not known to me as a troll"
Perhaps asking regular players like Syntx, Lailo Cat, In The Name Of The King. they can tell you that GhostCap IS a troll.

" In the following situation"
In the following situation I got down to the elevator and saw you "Brot" and another player "In the name of the king", and I didn't press the elevator button and waited for you guys to get on. all three of us went up without a problem.

"GhostCap came running, but this time he made it onto the elevator"
GhostCap made it onto the elevator the first time even though I didn't want him to for reasons I stated above. I did admit in pressing the button and apologized. The next time he got on the elevator I didn't press the elevator and kept a distance so everyone could get on.

"I should look into the logs is unfortunately not possible for me, I can not see who pressed the button"
This pretty much sums up the narrative here. You do not have the evidence to prove what you did. You punished a player and you didn't have the evidence justify your actions.

"Since the situation has played out exactly like the previous only with the difference that GhostCap it this time on the elevator"
GhostCap made it onto the elevator on both occasions as I mentioned in my original post

"I have of course weighed the evidence and have come to the conclusion that you pressed the button again as in the situation before to prevent GhostCap from getting on the elevator."
Firstly you have no evidence as you are unable to check the logs. Secondly I could have pressed the button earlier as soon as I got on the elevator as I was 3-4 seconds ahead of everyone else, but I didn't. Instead I waited and saw GhostCap running towards the elevator and yet I did nothing and let him get on.

"I ask you in the future to behave according to the rules of the servers, then I as an admin do not have to intervene in such situations."
Firstly I didn't ask you to intervene, I asked for a "SENIOR ADMIN" to intervene.

"I hope you understand my view on the situation. But I have already explained this to you in the game."
You Ignored me when the whole situation went down. I called your name in chat and pleaded with you but you still ignored me. You had nothing to say and all you wanted to do was throw the situation under the carpet.



Honestly if this is your best answer, using intuition rather than actual evidence then this is pathetic from your end. You are a regular player yourself and yet you know little about GhostCap who is also a regular player. You simply cannot prove your case by accessing the logs but you claim you have evidence. The fact that you try to justify your actions is what makes everything incredibly grotesque. You are an admin of a server yet you act more like a baby sitter who would argue at both parties without weighing their argument or listening at the very least. Your answers are unacceptable.

 

[Brot]

A normal admin like me doesn't have the possibility to check every button that was pressed by a player.

Furthermore, they were admonished in the situation before. Then they went into the same situtaion and tried again to troll the player GhostCap.

They present themselves here as an innocent player who admits to misconduct. However, this does not entitle them to commit rule violations again.

You have already been banned from the server today at 10:32 am for teamkilling.

In addition, no demos or evidence must be deposited for minor violations such as yours.

They were only freed and pointed out to their misconduct.

The reason why "GhostCap" is not known to me as a troll is easy to understand via Sourceban, because he was banned for the last 6 months.

Moreover, they do not have to ask me to intervene this performs an admin independently.

I wonder what "proof" you're talking about here, I saw you press the button to boot the chair again. That is enough to freeze you.

I am not trying to justify my actions, I am just trying to give you insight into my decision making.

 

[mSyy]

Well it looks like you ignored my second post and just re-written what you said earlier. Didn't expect anything different form a low tier, rogue admin like yourself. I'm not waiting here for your reply, I'm here for a "REAL" admin to give clarity on the arguments presented here.

 

[easy]

Grieving on the server is a major issue. When I see that you were banned this morning for teamkilling I hopeyou might have an idea now of how it feels when somebody is ruining your game experience. Moreover I hope you will stop teamkilling now.

Regarding this report:

1) Our admins are trusted. It'a not the admin who got to proof that he didnt abuse. The player opening the abuse report has the burden of proof. That's why we ask for valid proof in this form. You said you hold the proof for a possible abuse, may I ask to see it?

Reporting an abuse is a serious matter. Do you hold all the proofs requested for an abuse request? Yes

2) Just because a player grieved you it does not give you the right to grieve yourself. It's like in real life: If you break the rules you are guilty youself. Your guilt wont be weighed to somebody else's guilt. For example if anybody steals your bike it doesnt give you the right to steal another bike, not even his bike.

3) Our admins dont need to ask regular players for opinions before taking action. Just a sidenote: At least one player you named won the troll of the year award like two years in a row.

4) If you played fair in first instance and didnt press the button to use elevator right before your mates can enter you wouldnt have been in this situation.

5) You accused admin Brot of abusing so it is his duty to reply here.

6) If the player GhostCap is coninuing to break our rules he will be detected sooner or later. Regarding his last ban lenghts he doesnt have many chances left.

As much as I read you got frozen for not listening to the admin and continuing not to play like a teammate is expected. I dont see any abuse here - I see an admin doing his job to ensure fair play.

This said I am awaiting proof in form of a demo from you mSyy to check if I am mistaken and if there possibly was abuse.

 

[mSyy]

I understand that I did teamkill before and do admit that I was wrong and payed the price. When I am wrong on a matter I always confess when confronted, but when I'm wronged I am vocal until I'm heard. I have been frozen in the past for trolling, my only actions are to remain silent in shame, just like GhostCap was. But on an occasion like this, it is impossible to remain silent. As for being the burden of proof, unfortunately i was not recording at the time. I was solely relying on the fact that the server was logging player interactions with buttons on maps. This would have been the only proof required that would outweigh visual reference.

Through my experience playing this server. I have never witnessed a player get frozen because he pressed the button on an elevator, not one time. I never even knew doing so would warrant a player to get frozen or punished. This behaviour is almost as predictable as closing the doors on players. Perhaps reporting a player with this behaviour would get them banned right? two repetitive elevator usage without waiting on teammates gets them punished? If this is the case, Why wasn't GhostCap punished as I am pretty sure he checks this quota?

I also understand that if you got the evidence for an illegal action then you don't need more evidence on top of what is required. But Brot had no evidence that I was the one pressed the button. Like i said in my original post, when i got onto the elevator. There was a solid 3-4 seconds before GhostCap came on. And of which I could have, at any point pressed the elevator button to my desire. A real troll would have spammed the button at first contact with the elevator ? Now ask Brot if he saw me doing this? The fact that Ghostcap was silent throughout this whole ordeal speaks a thousand words, even more so. When i got frozen, he approached me and stood in front and started spam crouching, or t-bagging me.

Playing fair is everyone's responsibility, I understand. But GhostCap was repetitively trolling the server and getting away with it with light warnings. I only wanted to give him a taste of his own medicine.

Obviously getting feedback from both party is crucial. Watching and reading Brots replies carefully, I have concluded that he has ignored my posts or have not replied to some key points I have raised. When i make a post, i cover all points and if i haven't, it means i agreed to them.

You're saying that after i got frozen and didn't continue to play like a teammate? Is there proof for this? I want to see the proof for this accusation. After the abuse took place i didn't feel like playing anymore. I was wandering the map contemplating what just happened drowned in my own confusion. The only thing i wanted to do was to try to make contact with Brot, to clarify the situation. But Brot outright ignored me until i left the server.

 

[easy]

Well as I said before, if you dont hold the proof and it is word vs word we rely on our admins. Good to hear you accept your (previous) fault and seem to have learned from it.

Brot was wright when he told you that he doesnt have to provide a demo for minor rulebreaking. And dont forget: He only froze you as a serious warning after talking to you in first instance. This is exactly what we expect our admins to do.

Regarding your questions:

A real troll would have spammed the button at first contact with the elevator ? Now ask Brot if he saw me doing this?

Not necessarily. A pro troll would wait as long as possible to give the other players the feeling that they are allowed to ride the elevator with him. This is what happens most of the time.

Why wasn't GhostCap punished as I am pretty sure he checks this quota?

Our admins take action whenever they see rulebreaking. But remember: Our admins are players and humen too. Sometimes they are busy playing, sometimes they are busy in real life. And even if not: Nobody can have an eye on 64 players at the same time as nobody has 64 eyes, 64 monitors or a brain that is able to process 64 impressions.

Perhaps reporting a player with this behaviour would get them banned right?

Probably not - these things are mainly handled in game. In rare occasions when somebody having a ban record for teamkilling had been warned and punished before for the same reason there might be a ban issued via request but that's rather unrealistic due to invalid proofs (good demo, verifiability that the player did it on purpose, player's history, etc.)

Playing fair is everyone's responsibility, I understand. But GhostCap was repetitively trolling the server and getting away with it with light warnings. I only wanted to give him a taste of his own medicine.

As I said before: You are not supposed to give anybody a taste of his own medicine. You are joining ur community when joining our servers or forum and just like in most societies - or better: just like in all civilized societies we do not tolerate vigilantism.

You're saying that after i got frozen and didn't continue to play like a teammate? Is there proof for this? I want to see the proof for this accusation.

You admitted that you did it before to take revenge and admin Brot told us that he saw you doing it again. As said before: Our admins are trusted and we believe them if it is word vs. word. And again: Not the admin you accuse of abuse has the burden of proof - you do have the burden.

You tell now that Brot didnt answer you, checking his logs I can see that he did. He even added you on steam to talk to you but you didnt react. What else should he do? At a certain point when the discussion circles around the same (already answered) questions or when there is no reaction from one side our admins move along and take care of the next situation.

I guess we all agree that this siutation wouldnt have happened if the other player and you played like teammates. Take care for yourself to be a teammate next time, our admins take care of the other player in case he continues his unfair playstyle.

Ps: I dont wanna see something like this in chat again:

Refrain from insulting our players and our admins in the future.

 

[mSyy]

if you dont hold the proof and it is word vs word we rely on our admins.

I'm actually quite saddened by this. Not that i couldn't provide the proof, but also how Brot couldn't provide his proof either; of which you would favour the admin over the player.

A pro troll would wait as long as possible to give the other players the feeling that they are allowed to ride the elevator with him.

Not sure what your experience with zm_4way looks like. But from but from my perspective, 90% of the time the troll pushes the elevator button at first contact. A pro troll doesn't reveal their identity unless their begging for a ban.

Not the admin you accuse of abuse has the burden of proof - you do have the burden.

Brot Accused me of pushing the button? my argument is where is his proof? He froze me so he has the Burdon of proof! You don't punish a player if you don't have the visual proof to back it, minor or not. If this was a court case both parties have to provide proof!

You tell now that Brot didnt answer you, checking his logs I can see that he did.

I would like to see those logs, including the messages I sent.

At a certain point when the discussion circles around the same (already answered) questions or when there is no reaction from one side our admins move along and take care of the next situation.

What do you mean there was no reaction from one side? Have you not checked the chat log? Have you not seen the messages I directed to brot? Yes Brot did try to add me afterwards but i was too vexed to have a conversation him.

I guess we all agree that this siutation wouldnt have happened if the other player and you played like teammates.

The only time i ever attempt to troll or break rules is when i assume the admins are offline. After the first warning from Brot, i did not attempt to foil my position in the server again. Even from my last ban by JD, i assumed there were no admins online. So to this point i find it hard to believe that Brot thinks i pressed the button, even after realising he was actively playing and after getting a warning.


The only thing i have learnt form writing long paragraphs trying to explain the situation, is that the admin is always right unless you have video footage which proves otherwise. Understanding this makes me think i have the short side of the stick here. it all comes down to the tale of the tape. If you have no tape, you have no case.
I have now decided to record every session i play on this server, not just for the sake of reporting trolls. But to also protect myself, to prevent a situation like this form happening again.

As for the last message I sent in chat, I apologise and take that back.

 

[easy]

Tell me in wich society somebody is accused succesfully without proof? What is your expectation? Shall we kick every admin out of the team that is accused of abuse by somebody who didnt give us any proof? Shall we ban every player permanently that is accused of using cheats by somebody who didnt give us any proof? What if somebody accuses you of cheating tomorrow lacking any demo? Shall we ban you then?

I mean seriously... If you open an abuse report or ban request here make sure you have some demo otherwise it will be hard to proof any kind of misbehaviour from an admin or player. We even write it in the form: "Reports without demo will most likely be closed without consequences."

And of course when it comes to word vs word we trust our admins - especially when they have been doing a great job since ages.

Here are some logs:

You:

16.03.2022 13:41

i saw ghost coming so i wanted to go up w/o him.

Brot:

L 03/16/2022 - 13:41:04: [basechat_css.smx] "noAim| Brot<25><[U:1:44039011]><>" triggered sm_say (text msyy really?)

You:

16.03.2022 13:42

i wanted to but i saw ghostcap coming.

Brot:

L 03/16/2022 - 13:42:45: [basechat_css.smx] "noAim| Brot<25><[U:1:44039011]><>" triggered sm_say (text mSyy next time wait for you teammates ok?)

You: No answer.

Brot:

L 03/16/2022 - 13:50:22: [funcommands.smx] "noAim| Brot<25><[U:1:44039011]><>" froze "mSyy<9><[U:1:10527293]><>"

You:

Brot:

L 03/16/2022 - 13:51:17: [basechat_css.smx] "noAim| Brot<25><[U:1:44039011]><>" triggered sm_say (text lastw arning wait for teammates)

By the way: This abuse report is declined as the player couldnt provide any proof.

 

[mSyy]

This abuse report is declined as the player couldnt provide any proof.

Still waiting for the day to come where Brot is successful in providing proof. He accused me of pressing the button but he has no proof. He even used his admin privileges to freeze me without providing proof... Yet you call me the accuser....

But the weirdest thing is, had I shown u a demo of what actually happened on the elevator. That it wasn't me who pressed the button. This whole situation would have been dismissed with a single sorry from the admin. The end. That is as far as this would have stretched.

I have nothing more to say on here. This is my last reply.

 

[Nikooo777]

Still waiting for the day to come where Brot is successful in providing proof. He accused me of pressing the button but he has no proof. He even used his admin privileges to freeze me without providing proof... Yet you call me the accuser....

But the weirdest thing is, had I shown u a demo of what actually happened on the elevator. That it wasn't me who pressed the button. This whole situation would have been dismissed with a single sorry from the admin. The end. That is as far as this would have stretched.

I have nothing more to say on here. This is my last reply.

he doesn't need to provide proof.
You broke the rules on his watch previously, he had a suspicion you'd do it again (correctly so), you happened to be in a situation like the first one again and whether you actually pressed the button or not, it looked like you did, and given your previous actions he deemed correct to punish you.

If you didn't press the button, there is a lesson to be learned: don't ever press it when you shouldn't, so nobody will ever suspect that you will do it again in the near future
if you pressed the button: well in that case you got a tap on the wrist, a freeze is not as bad as a kick/slay/ban.

No abuse to be seen here. Easy outlined it all out well.