[online] zm_clouds_v2_1

[rhodo]

Map is 50/50-ish. Why ? If you have 64 ppl and only 1 CT survive it still counts as CT win., Despite 63 ppl are zombies at the end of the round ;-) . Zombies win is only counted when all CT's are infected. Therefore all stats of CT/ZM ratio wins are useless.

 

[Paw]

I disagree with you. A map can still be fun for both sides and a good addition to the servers without the stats necessarily being ~50/50 in terms of round wins. A big reason I think why some maps are so uneven is because people don't know how to get kills as zm or don't want to play as zm long enough to learn the maps (For example 2 zombies is enough to take down most of the people camping on zm_canals once they figure out how to runboost which would most likely result in a round win that could potentially have evened out the map stats for zombies as there is a big chance the other spots would fall as well.). However I agree the map could need some changes/fixes, but I'd prefer to keep the changes to a minimum only fixing the teleports so that the zms can't camp there in addition to making it a bit easier for zms to reach the second island as most of the main island is easy to take care of if you go in the right order for kills. Making too many changes might ruin the feel of the map and nostalgia for some which is bad for the servers.

 

[Mol]

To Paw

"I disagree with you. A map can still be fun for both sides and a good addition to the servers without the stats necessarily being ~50/50 in terms of round wins."

I agree. I havnt said otherwise.

"A big reason I think why some maps are so uneven is because people don't know how to get kills as zm or don't want to play as zm long enough to learn the maps"

Zombies are a lot more active on other maps and fact is that they are not on this map.

"Making too many changes might ruin the feel of the map and nostalgia for some which is bad for the servers."

A server cant survive longterm on nostalgia and im only talking about fixing the worst maps. There are still plenty of maps to feel nostalgic about. And pls do remember that changes can be reverted.

 

[Mol]

To Rhodo

"Map is 50/50-ish. Why ? If you have 64 ppl and only 1 CT survive it still counts as CT win., Despite 63 ppl are zombies at the end of the round ;-) . Zombies win is only counted when all CT's are infected. Therefore all stats of CT/ZM ratio wins are useless."

As i said to Paw we are not arguing it should be 50/50. We are looking at the maps where it is very far from it and where it doesnt seem like zombies have fun.

 

[Paw]

"I disagree with you. A map can still be fun for both sides and a good addition to the servers without the stats necessarily being ~50/50 in terms of round wins."

I agree. I havnt said otherwise.

You're contradicting yourself (if not you were being confusing here):

The map is not 50/50. It has a ct winrate around 85%, which is way higher than most other maps. Let´s get that clear.
A multiplayer game must be fun for both sides.
To sum up my main points i can say that it must be fun for both sides and that we should be carefull with falling into the trap of thinking of "correct" maps as being eighter "camping" or "hunting".

"A big reason I think why some maps are so uneven is because people don't know how to get kills as zm or don't want to play as zm long enough to learn the maps"
Zombies are a lot more active on other maps and fact is that they are not on this map.
"Making too many changes might ruin the feel of the map and nostalgia for some which is bad for the servers."
A server cant survive longterm on nostalgia and im only talking about fixing the worst maps. There are still plenty of maps to feel nostalgic about. And pls do remember that changes can be reverted.

I'm not against a few fixes, but making too many changes to one of the servers most popular maps (10th most played.) may cause more harm than good which is why I suggested to keep it to a minimum if possible as less good maps or an increase in bad maps (in eyes of the playerbase) might lead to them losing interest if there eventually are no more maps they find an interest in as a result of too many changes done.

 

[Mol]

To Paw

"You're contradicting yourself (if not you were being confusing here):"

Molsted said:
The map is not 50/50. It has a ct winrate around 85%, which is way higher than most other maps. Let´s get that clear.
A multiplayer game must be fun for both sides.
To sum up my main points i can say that it must be fun for both sides and that we should be carefull with falling into the trap of thinking of "correct" maps as being eighter "camping" or "hunting".

This was not a contradiction. It being 50/50, which was claimed, would have meant that it was not far away from 50/50, so i pointed out that this was not the case. Sry that came across as being messy. I try to not do that, but thats how my brain is sometimes

"I'm not against a few fixes, but making too many changes to one of the servers most popular maps (10th most played.) may cause more harm than good which is why I suggested to keep it to a minimum if possible as less good maps or an increase in bad maps (in eyes of the playerbase) might lead to them losing interest if there eventually are no more maps they find an interest in as a result of too many changes done."

I agree. However i dont feel like we are doing the oppisite. For example it was concluded that fast final doesnt need changes and we moved on. Now we are at clouds and it seems like it is different.

 

[The Bear Jew]

Bear's work is amazing, but you are destroying the map..
That only remains my opinion, but Cloud is 50/50 as for all the other maps .. when the zombies work in teams they win, when they play the little train well they lose

Hi mate, clouds isn't 50/50, it's easier for humans and not close even to be balanced. The idea here is to make the map balanced and fun which eventually makes both teams enjoy the game and not only humans.

I understand the idea of making the maps fair play, but now we wake up a little late, don't you think ? The players, there are less as many as 5/6 years ago, and even less than 10 years ago .. if we want to scare the remaining players away, this is the right move to make ^^

We can always go back you know, this isn't a one-way road.... Maybe make my map a special map if it wouldn't work. But I think a little test and new things are necessary here. How do we know if we didn't even tested? : ).

 

[Mol]

I what like to see the map with small pathes of fog/clouds to break up sightlines. I find it stressfull to be zombie on this map because you get shot from everywhere. Maybe this could help.

 

[Paw]

Focus on the changes Easy suggested so that we can keep changes to a minimum / avoid unnecessary changes that might upset the players. The other fixes should increase the amount of targets running around the main island making it easier for you and other inexperienced players.

 

[Mol]

We are going to disagree a lot on changes for maps, but that´s okay ^^ I don´t think it´s enough to look at individual spots with this map and remember that changes can always be reverted. We will never just drop a bomb on players and just tell them to deal with it.

I would also like to clearify that im not just looking at making it easier but also more pleasent for zombies. Decreasing the focus on the average zombie won´t change the fact that you can be shot from all angles at all distances almost at all points on the map.

 

[easy]

map is online, we are collecting data and see wether the latest versions can be used in future.