Proposal for a new votingsystem

Molsted

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13 Dec 2020
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Hi
This is a long post about something that is not a big problem, but i hope, that you will read it anyway and i do believe that the change i´m gonna propose is relatively simple.

With the current votingsystem, i think most people have made it a habbit to vote 4 or 5 to remove the popup easily or to get the "voting fix" quickly. Im sure you know of this problem, because you have assigned other meaning to 1,2 and 3, but this has only moved the problem and if you were to do the same for 4 and 5 people would vote 6 and 7 and so on. I know that the same map can´t be nominated more than once within a surden time period, but i do believe that more variation is needed and that the exciment from voting could be increased. Of course the time from being voted to being able to be nominated again could be increased, but it would be a shame to keep doing this.

To me this meen, that a solution would have to be without the popup. A way this could be done, is to have the window that showcases the amount of votes for each map to also include the information of which maps, that can be voted for and how to do vote. A way of doing so, is to have a number infront of the mapname like before and then have a command to vote for a map. This could be !1, !2, !3 and so on.

This introduces a new problem, which is that it excludes the players that dont know how to vote. Because of this, "Type !(number)" could be added in the top of the box. I realise that even with this, less people would still vote, but putting this into perspective, i think it´s a huge upgrade. The perspective being that the quality of each vote as it is now, is very close to nothing.

There are plenty of pros and cons yet to be discussed, so if you are interested, i would like to hear your thoughts and if there is enough interest, maybe we could make a vote to change, how we vote! :)

yes, im a bit bored right now, but so are you, if you made it this far
unless ofc this actually turns out to be a very facinating post, but i doubt that
idk
 

NoMatt3r

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Thank you for your input. Replacing the voting menu with chat commands will interrupt the players' gameplay even longer than the current vote menu does. Furthermore, players would need to learn the commands. I think, only a small amount of players will make use of this voting system and i cannot believe that this will change the outcome of the map vote in the end. There are several very popular maps which players reguarly nominate and vote regardless of how votes work. A new voting system as proposed will not lead to a bigger variety.

If you want to improve the quality of the votes by eliminating those random option 4 or 5 voters maybe an option like "Skip my vote" as first option would be just enough?!

Edit: Actually, we already have that option :emoji_upside_down:

Option 1 says "Do not vote"

fJJd9OgRAH.png
 
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Molsted

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Hey, thx for the respond :)

I agree with it interrupting the gameplay and that is a big negative, but i do believe that it would change the maps being played somewhat. I feel sure of this because the unplayed maps actually do get a high amount of votes, when they are nominated first.

The skipvote doesnt do anything. It is not enough because voting works as a fix, meaning it is satisfying to do so even though you dont think about the vote.

Regarding how it will result in less people voting i have to ask. Is that a bad thing? People only voting 4 and 5 shows that they dont give them thought anyway. This might be because people are somewhat happy with the maps being played, but that doesnt mean it couldnt get a bit better.

So for me the interresting question is: Would the systemchange result in a to drastic change of the maps being played, because the type of player that would use teh new votingsystem, plays way different types of maps? If this is the case, the system wouldnt work, but i would be very interrested to see if it is.
 

Molsted

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In addition i want to say, that it´s not my intention make it seem like i have a solution ready. I completely acknowlegde that it is hard to make a perfect system in this case and i don´t know the history of this forum, so if you have already given it a lot of thought and feel like you are past it, that´s all fine.
 

Janno

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12 Nov 2020
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why the vote starts while playing ? could the round start not also be a triggerabel moment ? then a 10 sec. freeze.
I get infected often while voteing :(
 

SpaghettiCat

Active Member
15 Feb 2015
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If your goal is to "[make] more [map] variation", this is already achieved by the nomination system. If I nominate an unpopular map and it ends up as vote #4 there is a 95% chance we're going to play that map next.

If you want even more variety you could make it so that maps played less often have a higher chance of being #4, but then you're forcing people to play maps that most of them don't want to play.

The cons of your system are that it interrupts gameplay and also spams the chat. Anyone having conversations in the chat will now be disrupted.
 

SpaghettiCat

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15 Feb 2015
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Also, come to think of it, with your system, where every vote is not a spam vote, unpopular maps will NEVER be chosen. Because most people don't want to play the unpopular maps. So we would have less map variety.
 

Molsted

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13 Dec 2020
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Hi :)

You can make commands not show up in the chat, so it wont be spam.

I want more variation, but i also want a more exciting votingsystem.

Because people vote 4 and 5, the maps that are the most popular, are the maps that are being nominated first. Sometimes it can almost feel like a race to get the first nomination. The people that cares a lot about this race, or just the people that nominate a lot, are people that play a lot, meaning that the nominationlist and the most popular maps are to a degree a reflection of this select group of people, so i´m not sure, if it is that easy to tell what maps people would actually vote for. And generally speaking if people have more time to make decisions, the decisions will be more varied.

This does mean that, the less picked maps wont have the "4 and 5" advantage anymore, but neihter will the people that nominate a lot. The people that will be willing to use the command is not likely to be close to the amount of people that vote now, meaning that there will somewhat be created a new group of people, that to a degree will create a picture of what the most popular maps are, but atleast, this group will be bigger than the "nominationg group".

There is a lot of things weighing up and down and some things, which direction im not even sure of, so it is hard to tell, what the result will be without testing. I´ll also say again, that it is not important to me, if the system that might be tested is the one, that i have proposed. The importance to me lies in starting to test for a better system, which i hope that, we can find together :)
 

SpaghettiCat

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I don't think that what is 4 is what was nominated first. I think the order is randomised from the nomination map pool.
 

Molsted

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My bad, it actually is amongst the playernominated maps. I would say that the point still stand though, because it is still a limited group of people that nominate.
 

SpaghettiCat

Active Member
15 Feb 2015
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I really don't understand what your goal is.

You said you wanted more map variation, so nominate an unpopular map and it will have a chance to be #4 and be picked.
You wanted a more "exciting voting system". Isn't it exciting enough to see what maps will be #4 and #5 and if your map will be it?
 

Molsted

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13 Dec 2020
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To me its not exciting feeling like it always depends on me to get a different map. And i want it to be better in general, even when im not there.

But it doesnt seem like, enough people feel the same, so i would like to leave it here.
 
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Janno

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12 Nov 2020
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It is not randomised , i see never cbble or rush_final or other common maps on a other place than 4 or 5 .
we need a real randomised voting system.
 

JUNIOЯ'

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It's random ^^

The voting system has nothing to do with the maps present on the numbers 4 / 5
The voting system present on the server (shown above in the NoMatt3r message), just allows you not to vote on 1 / 2 / 3, to "prevent" players from spamming 1 or 2 without even looking the maps.
But I'll admit something to you, people spam 4 / 5 without looking at the maps, and everyone knows that.
So whether it is 4 / 5 or 1 / 2, we will arrive at the same problem

What you want to "blame" is the nominate I think. Currently you can nominate a map by connecting to the server (Either you write "nominate" when arriving on the server / or you do it via the console "sm_nominate zm_Armin" for example (You need the full name of the map otherwise it doesn't work))

■ How the voting system works :

► Nominate first
► Random in second


■ I will try to explain myself :

► Nominations are given priority :
- You can nominate as many times as there is free space in the final vote (6 maps)
- Each player
can nominate 1 single map (which he can change at any time as much as he can)
- When the 6 maps have been nominated
by 6 different players, the "nominate" command is disabled (Maximum of "nominate" (vote) reached)
- When a player who nominated a map
disconnects, his nomination disappears, and it frees up a place.
- The places are
allocated according to the players (The first who nominates a map, will be first, the second, will be second..) [If the first who nominated a map, disconnects, the second who nominated a map therefore recovers first place] (This is also why we can see all the players spamming the "nominate" at the start of each map)
- You can be the first to nominate a map,
you can change your nomination at any time, you will remain first [IF YOU DON'T DISCONNECT BETWEEN TWO] (The players most often vote the first possible map of the nominate, to have the first place, and take the time afterwards to change for his favorite map)
- A recently played map,
you can nominate it 3 maps later (Maximum 1 hour later (3x20minutes) This is why we often see the same maps in a short time.)
- The
SPAs can change the order as they see fit of the maps present in the nominate list

Then it's randomly :
- What I mean by "random", are the first maps available randomly (Not recently played) in the map list
-
Random maps fill in the missing votes (For example there may have been only 3 players who nominated a map, so 3 more maps are needed to complete the vote, so they will be the first three available maps randomly selected from the list )

► Demonstration :
-First page I see when I write "nominate" on the server
upload_2021-2-19_12-57-50.png


-I decide to nominate the map
zm_canals_classic_eh_v2
upload_2021-2-19_13-0-12.png


-The end map vote is coming, here is what we can observe
upload_2021-2-19_13-1-31.png


-As you can see,
the map I nominated comes first (Numbers 4), so I was the first to choose to nominate a map.
So 5 random maps must complete the missing numbers.
If the map you nominated is 3rd (Numbers 6) for example, it means that there were 2 players who nominated a map before you

My opinion :

Players don't like novelty, they are used to their "comfort zone" on maps that they know perfectly well (You may have noticed this when I put special "very rarely played" maps. Players don't like it because they don't know the map, so they don't want to play it..)
That's why you can very often see the cbble / fast_final / palace / canals / 8chambers / rush_final / ... because the players nominate themselves these maps. You can observe all this on the HLstatsX in the most played maps ...
upload_2021-2-19_13-9-32.png



I'm like some players,
I'm a little fed up with always seeing the same maps present in the votes.. but I gave up a little on that I will admit.
And you, as a mapper, I can understand the frustration that you must have that nobody chooses your map because it is not placed in 4th or 5th position ^^
And avoid spamming "Pyramid best map" "Vote X for pyramid !! " "pyramiddddd" (I'm sure exaggerating, but you know what I mean..) It's spam and it's useless believe me..
You will never see a map that is placed in 7th or 8th be nominated ( With big exceptions (Hunting maps that many don't like [dust2 / azdu] in 4th and 5th position for exemple)

Your maps are superb I'm not saying the opposite, and you will see that if you manage to be the first to nominate the map you want, it will have a strong chance of being the next map

I had already mentioned this subject when I started on the Elite Hunterz (
Between admins), because I found that the maps repeated themselves too quickly, while we have a lot of beautiful maps in stock.

Why not try to bring up the subject again,
by lengthening the time between each nomination of the same map, to have a wider selection of maps. But I can't guarantee the result ^^

I hope this helped you understand all this a bit more, I tried to be as clear as possible !
 
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Molsted

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13 Dec 2020
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Hey, thx for giving a long respond!

"Why not try to bring up the subject again, by lengthening the time between each nomination of the same map, to have a wider selection of maps"

I don´t think this would do anything, because as we can see by the statistics, there actually is quite a lot of maps that are played fairly evenly, that all feel like they are overplayed, so i would fear that the lenght from played to new nomination would have to be increased to a point a point where there is to far in between for there to be a significant result. I don´t know if, this is true. It can ofc be discussed more.

Here are some suggestions for discussion about making it easier for new maps to rise and to reach the old but possibly overlooked maps, that might never have gotten the chanse:

- Suggestion 1 - As mentioned the lenght in between nominations could be increased, therefore forcing a break inbetween maps

- Suggestion 2 - As i proposed in the beggining, the spamvotes could be avoided by making voting a command as for exampel "!vote4" or "!4". The downside to this is that new maps wont get the 4 or 5 spam votes to get a chanse. However i don´t see this as a huge loss, because there isn´t a big different between 4 and 5 and when people are spamvoting they are still looking at it enough to choose, what is the most familiar. This has been seen with Jannos map, as the map has lost way more than 50% of the times it has eighter been in 4 or 5 and this is even though people really seem to like it, when playing it. Maybe people would be more likely to try something new when not spamvoting? And is the need for more variation enough to increase the stop in gameplay as this votingsystem would have?

- Suggestion 3 - Promotion for new maps and overlooked maps, that has potential to be popular. What i meen by this is that new maps could get a tag in the nominationlist, showing that it is a new map and maybe there could be a tag called something like "Map of the month" that is chosen by vote on the forum or maybe by admins.

- Suggestion 4 - Maybe the order in the nominationslist shouldn´t be random? I don´t know if it´s possible to apply math to it, but if it is, im sure, that there exsist plenty of formulas that could find a balance in the order of the nominationlist so popular maps are still played more and new maps would get a chanse aswell as the overlooked ones

What do you guys and girls think?
 

Molsted

Well-Known Member
Mapper
13 Dec 2020
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A system that makes it this hard for new maps to get popular is not working in my opinion.

I can understnad, why you would be carefull to make changes, but hopefully we can still have a discussion to see what most people feel like. In addition i would also say, that if you don´t want to mess with the fundementals, there is still a lot that can be done. One of the suggestions that wouldn´t cause any drastic changes, but might still be very effective is suggestion 3.

edit: When i talk about new maps, i´m also talking about the maps that were once new and never got a fair chance.
 
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Dataworm

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22 Feb 2015
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Yep it works in the sense of not being buggy. But regarding fairness it doesn't work at all. As they mentioned, it basically depends on who is faster. And well, as a donator you are not bothered by ads and might therefore be faster in nominations.
And yeah sure some players like it because they know how to take advantage of it. I also do it occasionally but for the sake of fairness, I would enjoy seeing new attempts to fix this. But as Junior I somehow gave up and doubt we will see an improvement, but I wish someone proves me wrong!
 

Janno

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12 Nov 2020
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thx JUNIOЯ' for your well understandable explanation.
I did not know that it counts who votes first.
I don't understand why a unfair system like this get not changed is there any reason ?
(it works couldn't be reason)


sry , yesterday i was really frustrated normaly i call only my vote suggestion when the Vote starts and not the whole round ^^ it is stupid i know x( (i am to honest with my emotions).
i don't want to force my map on anyone, but I think it is not fair to the few who don't want to play the same maps all the time.