Suggestion: Make 16 Chambers a special map again

Discussion in '[CS:S] EliteHunterZ's ZombieHunting & more' started by [ΞD] mid 90's jennifer aniston, 1 Jul 2020.

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Remove 16chambers from nomination list and make it a special map again?

  1. Yes

    77.8%
  2. No

    22.2%
  1. [ΞD] mid 90's jennifer aniston

    [ΞD] mid 90's jennifer aniston Member Donator

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    16 Chambers is a deeply flawed map. It was great as a very occasional special map, but in the regular rotation, there are a number of issues that keep it from being fun:
    • Glitches that make the map impossible for Zombies. This alone should remove the map from regular rotation. Several of the rooms have easily exploited glitches (like shooting a vending machine onto the elevator) that make it impossible for Zombies to win.
    • Guaranteed boredom. The fun of Zombie Mod comes from the unexpected; the Zombies stage a dramatic comeback when only three or left, or the last 5 Humans hold off a horde of Zombies as the clock ticks down. On 16 Chambers, the action settles into a boring stalemate very quickly, with isolated groups of Zombies slowly bringing down one room after another. I have NEVER seen the Zombies win a single round, nor have I seen Humans win by killing all the Zombies. It is 4 rounds of 5 minutes each, with very low kills, no hunting, and no exciting sudden changes in momentum.
    • Works much better as a special map. Many people clearly love 16 Chambers, and so we shouldn't get rid of it entirely. But we should recognize that is a unique map, with a totally different playstyle, and this "variety bag" map is much better suited to be an occasional treat than a map that shows up many times over the course of the day.
    I hope this makes sense. Thank you!
     
  2. easy

    easy Well-Known Member Staff Member Special Admin EliteHunterz Clan Member Donator

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    I support this idea as it is the most unbalanced and unfair map that has ever been on our nomination list. I see over powered spots in every single chamber. Way too many props, glitches and problems everywhere. It should have never become an regular map imo but now it is what it is and it is very popular (easy to win). I am not sure wether this map can be fixed (unless 15 chambers are closed).

    On the other hand this map is quite popular, that's what kept me from removing it so far.

    I am waiting for some more opinions before we will maybe take action.

    Edit: I added a poll.
     
  3. Paw

    Paw Well-Known Member Gameserver admin

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    Agree on his points, but consider how it might affect the playerbase:
    [​IMG]
    The server ranking on v3 dropped after the map was put further back in the nomination list. The map used to be among the "favorite maps" and the average player count has dropped by 3 from 47 in a month. It's possible that this is only a temporarily effect that has happened due to the other changes in the nomination list (or some other factor that could've cause a decrease in players) which happened not long after (I think chambers was put further back in the nomination before the other changes, but I could be wrong.), so I think it would be too early too make any further risky changes to the maplist before we see an increase in average players atleast or it starts to stabilize itself.
     
  4. [ΞD] mid 90's jennifer aniston

    [ΞD] mid 90's jennifer aniston Member Donator

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    That's interesting. I wouldn't want to get rid of it if it would lower player counts.

    A survey is the right way to go, thanks Easy.
     
  5. JUNIOЯ'

    JUNIOЯ' Well-Known Member Gameserver admin

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    And I would add : Administering this map is a nightmare, you must have your eyes in each chambers at the same time, but I don't have this power.

    Yes
    Paw, the map went from 1st in the "nominate" list (because of the [zm_1] 6, the numbers come first before the letters), to the last position, after adding the "Kapras" of TheRalle (It seems to me)

    I agree, I am bored on this map and as I said above, it's horrible to administering.

    I had thought of something,
    TheRalle created some maps (Don't remember the names sorry) where "doors/places/ways" are locked randomly at the start of each round, do you think it is possible to lock 2 lanes (or 3), so 8 (or 12) chambers randomly ? This would give 8 (or 4) accessible chambers per round.

    The maps where it is easy to camp (thus to win in human) have very often the popularity, would have to organize events "special camp maps" where this map could be played :')
     
    Last edited: 1 Jul 2020
    NorthernLight likes this.
  6. easy

    easy Well-Known Member Staff Member Special Admin EliteHunterz Clan Member Donator

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    This - among other fixes - was one of my suggestions too. Unfortunately I am looking for a map maker to try to fix this map since almost a year. I asked everybody I know including ex-admins, admins and players. I didnt found anybody yet.

    Exactly. Additionally I personally doubt we are losing players just because they gotta press "9" 5 times to nominate this map. I believe we lose players due to a) lags, b) spawn trapping, c) lacking adminstration/fair play and d) game is losing popularity in general. But a+b+c should be discussed in different threads.

    There are easily as many players who hate chambers as there are who love it. When 64 players are playing a map actively and chambers is next we suddenly got 15-20 specs.

    Why? Probably because it is the most boring and unfair map. Every map ends 4:0 for CTs, often players dont even see an enemy for 5 minutes.
    Some stats (checked last 57 map results in my folder):
    54x 4:0 CTs
    2x 5:0 CTs
    1x 4:1 CTs (wow weekend noobiez xD)
    No Zombie win since I erased my screenshot folder in October 2019. Only 1 round in 9 months.

    And yes, map is popular - this and the risk of losing players are the only reasons why I didnt remove it from nomination list long time ago...
     
  7. WolfRam

    WolfRam Retired SPA/HA Retired SPA/HA Donator

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    As the person who updated the map to what it is today i think i should to add a few things.

    First, randomly locking doors is a big NONO. Simply because the players will get pissed when they are chased by ZM and get to a locked door. And the mechanics behind the "RANDOM" function in source is a bit flawed.

    2nd, when i updated the map, with help from enissay, we realized quickly there isnt much you can do without destroying the map so many players already like. So we ended up making most of the rooms nerfed in some way. what i mean by that is that the original had many many ways to block ZMs path 100% with props or long crawlspaces, that we removed and made sure every place could be gotten to by ZM with either ZM skill or big ZM numbers. Every room can get taken over, the issue is that the zm dont work together and when i left css a few years ago the ZM skill level was low. Boostjumps, tripping edgers, manipulate props & general co-op seemed almost lost at the time because nobody wanted to play as ZM. i duno how its now, but i suspect is the same.

    3rd, we knew back them that the map would be an issue, so i also tried to add more fun stuff to do in some of the rooms. so people wouldnt always just end up in spec.

    and i want to add that camping isnt a bad thing in the game. its part of it. that is why you need ZM skill as well as CT skill. Someone who only have one, only plays half the game and are very limited(but i think most admins know this, i just wished more players realized it). Every map i made and updated i/we always tried to make sure you could always get to every campspot in 2 ways. but its about knowing the map and having the skill. mostly we did so successfully i think.

    btw, as a mapper, i beg you to please not try to fix a map if you dont know how to make a map. a complete map. you can change things, move things add things(like extra bad spawnpoints inside walls(yes, that has happened)) and some of the tools in hammer can break the map if you dont know how to use it(i have personally fixed all of these issues at some point). and a map should always go though a Final compile, and if you dont know what that is you should learn about hammer or not be fixing maps.
    (this last msg is more to the SA and HA than regular admins, but i hope some of you try to learn mapmaking at some point, it fun.)
    add me on steam if you have questions or want to know where to start when it comes to making maps(its alot to learn tho)

    have a nice day and good luck <3
     
    Slowian and Paw like this.
  8. Spells

    Spells Active Member

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    Hi guys,

    A huge issue with 16chambers is that there are some redundant rooms that are used rarely, albeit never. Take the blue one with the waterfalls... You cannot make sense of it, what is up with that? Maybe have a modified map, i.e. 8chambers with less rooms and more fun (add the possibility to go from one room to anther directly).

    @easy: game play on the server has really degraded... I made a separate post about people with AWPs ..., but each time I play I see so many people do stupid stuff ...

    Have a good one,
    Spells
     
  9. JUNIOЯ'

    JUNIOЯ' Well-Known Member Gameserver admin

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    I still remember when the "real map" (zm_16chambres) was played on the Supreme Elite server (of which a member was the creator), I think it was never really appreciated (too big), and that everyone was rushing into room 1..

    My intention isn't to block random doors, it's to block the corridor (bottom AND above) which provides access to the 4 doors.

    TheRalle has created some maps including one in particular which each round randomly spawns a grid/wood (solid props) which blocks 1 door on 2. (zm_eh_despair or zm_eh_filth for example)
     
  10. WolfRam

    WolfRam Retired SPA/HA Retired SPA/HA Donator

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    @Spells its not really about the rooms or the guns, its about the players and the effort and skill they bring. Me and enissay used to wreck CT on chambers when we both where zm, any room. that is just 2 players with zm skills.
    and i made the waterfall room so zm could use it for training bhop-skills and air skills. and both ct and zm can camp there ofcourse.
    you should also try to teach players tricks so they can help you, there are even posters, on some maps, we made that show how to do some of the tricks

    @JUNIOЯ' ye, its too big and think its why ppl spec it. they dont bother to look in all the rooms and face CT alone. many of the original rooms where broken too(in an OP way)

    blocking corridors isnt that bad of an idea. didnt think of it. and yes, its easy to do :)
     
  11. Dataworm

    Dataworm Ex-Admin Ex Admin

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    I think activity in the recent months was also greatly affected by corona. I didn't collect stats at that time but I felt like activity increased a low around start of corona lockdown... Now it decreased a bit more once again but I guess that might also be related to corona situation. This is probably more likely a reason of changes in player count than some map order in nomination list. ;-)

    Also you forgot one option in the vote:
    Remove 16campers entirely from the server! xD
     
  12. WolfRam

    WolfRam Retired SPA/HA Retired SPA/HA Donator

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  13. [ΞD] mid 90's jennifer aniston

    [ΞD] mid 90's jennifer aniston Member Donator

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  14. Law_Enforcement

    Law_Enforcement Well-Known Member Donator

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    Hate this map, too OP. why not just rewamp it? what's the point of having unfair maps that CT's always win if they want to? no hunting here just camping
     
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