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icephoenix

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23 May 2019
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The problem with the current panic (revisited) is that rounds where barricading in the basement that results in a human victory is almost non-existant. Like I said before, the glass room really cuts down on what can or can't be done down there. I sometimes see people who try to barricade themselves in the old popular basement spots like the 3 vending machine room by the stairs, the corner room in the back, or the 2 couch + 1 soda machine sandwich next to the vents etc. However, 90% of the times they end up dying early before the barricades can be even built because of the 10+ people running to the glass room who end up dying within the first 10 seconds due to the fast zombie spawning timers. Because of this, it is extremely rare to see anyone camping in the basement at a spot other than the glass room. Rendering a good 50% of the map unplayable doesn't really seem like an efficient use of the map. Also, I don't really agree with the idea that humans will win the majority of the time if the original panic map is used, and I can explain this with the same psychology that is applied for all of the other big camping spots like the orange crate.

The reason why so many people go to the crate and glass room is because it is the easiest place to reach and defend as a human given the short zombie spawning times. The cost to benefit ratio and chance of survival is really high for these spots because of this. If we account for edgers and stray grenades, high density spots like the crate and glass room are one of the worst camping spots. Despite this, people still camp at that spot because there is a better chance to survive with 10+ people than than going to build a barricade in the basement or house given the amount of time they have. In contrast, barricading in rooms in panic revisited is extremely high risk, and low reward. Assuming that the group manages to build a barricade within the first 10 seconds before zombies spawn and wipes out the glass room, and unless a room has AT LEAST 3-4 people, it would be near impossible for them to survive the entire round of 60+ players during hot times on the server. So let's say we swap the panic revisited map with the vanilla panic, and people end up spreading out more. Let's say there is a small group of 5-6 people who camp at the 3 vending machine room by the stairs, and somehow end up winning the round against 60+ people. I am sure that quite a handful of those 60 people who couldn't break that barricade would want to go camp there the next round. I'm sure you know where i'm going with this. What happens when 20 noobs who don't know any better try to cram inside a tiny room? In scenario 1, at least one of those 20 people will become a zombie, and everyone in the room will now die, making that camping spot lost. In scenario 2, the barricade will not be built because there are now 20 more people who dont know what they're doing and either delay the barricading process, or end up breaking it due to the high volume of people. Either way. Everyone dies in that room, people lose interest of going there for the next round because they don't want to deal with the shitstorm that will probably occur again if they all go there. Meanwhile, the smarter players will be aware of this, and try to build at other camping spots in the map. If they end up dying in the end, nothing will happen because people don't want to go to spots that are considered "weak". If they end up winning, the same thing will happen to that room like the 3 vending machine room in the following round: Everyone goes there, everyone dies. The point I'm trying to make is that "good" or "winning" camping spots are really only good for 1-2 rounds of winning. The unpredictability of players, and the volatility of the relationship between # of players and chance of survival is what will ultimately "Balance" the map. The more people in a spot, the higher chance they have of having a complete victory, or a complete loss.

Currently, the layout of panic revisited results in either 100% heavily favored wins for the humans or zombies. Either the zombies get completely trashed by the humans, or vice versa. Pardon me for my loosely articulated statistics lesson here, but If you look at it this way, panic revisited is indeed, a "balanced" map. Let's say there is enough time to play 10 rounds of panic revisited per map rotation. For each win, I will give a score from 0-100 to measure the degree of how the win was achieved. 5 of those rounds will be a complete human victory (humans clearly won, zombies didnt even have a chance if they tried, score: 100 to humans, 0 to zombies), while the other 5 rounds will be a complete zombie victory, score: 100 to zombies 0 to humans. If we average out the scores, it will be a 50/50 ratio between humans and zombies. However, this results in a bimodal distribution (wins and losses are on the opposite/extreme ends of the curve (a lot of 0's and a lot of 100's, with very few 50's). For example, if 80% of the people are on the orange crate, and they die, it is almost guaranteed for the zombies to end up winning even if people are camping elsewhere eg. the roof. In contrast, if the crate group doesnt die, the few zombies left over tend to give up or suicide/afk in the basement (from personal experience of playing panic since it first came out over a decade ago).
I believe if we changed panic revisited to vanilla panic, the distribution curve will become normal and more center focused (more 50's and few 0 and 100's). Because people are more spread out, it makes it so that if 1 camping spot dies, the humans are not necessarily doomed. There will be more scenarios where the humans will be fighting until the timer runs out, with nonstop waves of zombies, with scores of 50. In other words, humans will have to try to win instead of having 20 ppl shooting on 1 zombie, and zombies will have to try to win, instead of having 20 zombies trying to kill 1 person. This way, the win/loss ratio will still result in an average of 50, except the wins/losses will be more in the middle.
Sorry for rambling, but I would like to have a sense of accomplishment for my wins - knowing that my skills of barricading and working with a small group of players is what brought us to the win, instead of sitting in a spot with 20 people shitting on a couple of zombies or vice versa.

65eb927e68.png
518c6a94e2.png


At the end of the day, the main issue is the short amount of time that humans have before a zombie appears. If the spawner timer is increased by 10-20 seconds, it will give ample amount of time for barricades to be set up in time to make it so the basement in panic (and other barricading maps) becomes viable again. If nothing is going to be changed, then maps will have to be changed.

As for 4way, I do not believe that it is because people "dont know how to play it" but rather, it's extremely difficult to gather enough people to go "zombie hunting". 4Way might be a good map if there are only a few people on the server like during the downtimes (<20 people), where zombie hunting can be viable if you have a small group of players willing to join you. However, v3 EH server is very packed the majority of the times. Unless you can manage to recruit 15+ people for your zombie hunting expedition, I find it HIGHLY unlikely that you will be able hunt, let alone survive an entire round of 40+ zombies coming at you. The amount of teamwork and coordination that is required for this is nearly impossible to set up in such a highly populated server unless you have a mic and someone taking charge. To this day I have not heard a single person using a microphone in this server. I would love to go zombie hunting rather than camp on the top platform, but the volume of people (and by extension, zombies) on the server makes this impossible to do so. It forces people to go to the platform in order to survive instead of hunting or camping elsewhere. Therefore, for the purposes of the current v3 EH server, 4 way is a poorly designed map.
 

Havoc

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The problem with the current panic (revisited) is that rounds where barricading in the basement that results in a human victory is almost non-existant. Like I said before, the glass room really cuts down on what can or can't be done down there. I sometimes see people who try to barricade themselves in the old popular basement spots like the 3 vending machine room by the stairs, the corner room in the back, or the 2 couch + 1 soda machine sandwich next to the vents etc. However, 90% of the times they end up dying early before the barricades can be even built because of the 10+ people running to the glass room who end up dying within the first 10 seconds due to the fast zombie spawning timers. Because of this, it is extremely rare to see anyone camping in the basement at a spot other than the glass room. Rendering a good 50% of the map unplayable doesn't really seem like an efficient use of the map. Also, I don't really agree with the idea that humans will win the majority of the time if the original panic map is used, and I can explain this with the same psychology that is applied for all of the other big camping spots like the orange crate.

The reason why so many people go to the crate and glass room is because it is the easiest place to reach and defend as a human given the short zombie spawning times. The cost to benefit ratio and chance of survival is really high for these spots because of this. If we account for edgers and stray grenades, high density spots like the crate and glass room are one of the worst camping spots. Despite this, people still camp at that spot because there is a better chance to survive with 10+ people than than going to build a barricade in the basement or house given the amount of time they have. In contrast, barricading in rooms in panic revisited is extremely high risk, and low reward. Assuming that the group manages to build a barricade within the first 10 seconds before zombies spawn and wipes out the glass room, and unless a room has AT LEAST 3-4 people, it would be near impossible for them to survive the entire round of 60+ players during hot times on the server. So let's say we swap the panic revisited map with the vanilla panic, and people end up spreading out more. Let's say there is a small group of 5-6 people who camp at the 3 vending machine room by the stairs, and somehow end up winning the round against 60+ people. I am sure that quite a handful of those 60 people who couldn't break that barricade would want to go camp there the next round. I'm sure you know where i'm going with this. What happens when 20 noobs who don't know any better try to cram inside a tiny room? In scenario 1, at least one of those 20 people will become a zombie, and everyone in the room will now die, making that camping spot lost. In scenario 2, the barricade will not be built because there are now 20 more people who dont know what they're doing and either delay the barricading process, or end up breaking it due to the high volume of people. Either way. Everyone dies in that room, people lose interest of going there for the next round because they don't want to deal with the shitstorm that will probably occur again if they all go there. Meanwhile, the smarter players will be aware of this, and try to build at other camping spots in the map. If they end up dying in the end, nothing will happen because people don't want to go to spots that are considered "weak". If they end up winning, the same thing will happen to that room like the 3 vending machine room in the following round: Everyone goes there, everyone dies. The point I'm trying to make is that "good" or "winning" camping spots are really only good for 1-2 rounds of winning. The unpredictability of players, and the volatility of the relationship between # of players and chance of survival is what will ultimately "Balance" the map. The more people in a spot, the higher chance they have of having a complete victory, or a complete loss.

Currently, the layout of panic revisited results in either 100% heavily favored wins for the humans or zombies. Either the zombies get completely trashed by the humans, or vice versa. Pardon me for my loosely articulated statistics lesson here, but If you look at it this way, panic revisited is indeed, a "balanced" map. Let's say there is enough time to play 10 rounds of panic revisited per map rotation. For each win, I will give a score from 0-100 to measure the degree of how the win was achieved. 5 of those rounds will be a complete human victory (humans clearly won, zombies didnt even have a chance if they tried, score: 100 to humans, 0 to zombies), while the other 5 rounds will be a complete zombie victory, score: 100 to zombies 0 to humans. If we average out the scores, it will be a 50/50 ratio between humans and zombies. However, this results in a bimodal distribution (wins and losses are on the opposite/extreme ends of the curve (a lot of 0's and a lot of 100's, with very few 50's). For example, if 80% of the people are on the orange crate, and they die, it is almost guaranteed for the zombies to end up winning even if people are camping elsewhere eg. the roof. In contrast, if the crate group doesnt die, the few zombies left over tend to give up or suicide/afk in the basement (from personal experience of playing panic since it first came out over a decade ago).
I believe if we changed panic revisited to vanilla panic, the distribution curve will become normal and more center focused (more 50's and few 0 and 100's). Because people are more spread out, it makes it so that if 1 camping spot dies, the humans are not necessarily doomed. There will be more scenarios where the humans will be fighting until the timer runs out, with nonstop waves of zombies, with scores of 50. In other words, humans will have to try to win instead of having 20 ppl shooting on 1 zombie, and zombies will have to try to win, instead of having 20 zombies trying to kill 1 person. This way, the win/loss ratio will still result in an average of 50, except the wins/losses will be more in the middle.
Sorry for rambling, but I would like to have a sense of accomplishment for my wins - knowing that my skills of barricading and working with a small group of players is what brought us to the win, instead of sitting in a spot with 20 people shitting on a couple of zombies or vice versa.

65eb927e68.png
518c6a94e2.png


At the end of the day, the main issue is the short amount of time that humans have before a zombie appears. If the spawner timer is increased by 10-20 seconds, it will give ample amount of time for barricades to be set up in time to make it so the basement in panic (and other barricading maps) becomes viable again. If nothing is going to be changed, then maps will have to be changed.

As for 4way, I do not believe that it is because people "dont know how to play it" but rather, it's extremely difficult to gather enough people to go "zombie hunting". 4Way might be a good map if there are only a few people on the server like during the downtimes (<20 people), where zombie hunting can be viable if you have a small group of players willing to join you. However, v3 EH server is very packed the majority of the times. Unless you can manage to recruit 15+ people for your zombie hunting expedition, I find it HIGHLY unlikely that you will be able hunt, let alone survive an entire round of 40+ zombies coming at you. The amount of teamwork and coordination that is required for this is nearly impossible to set up in such a highly populated server unless you have a mic and someone taking charge. To this day I have not heard a single person using a microphone in this server. I would love to go zombie hunting rather than camp on the top platform, but the volume of people (and by extension, zombies) on the server makes this impossible to do so. It forces people to go to the platform in order to survive instead of hunting or camping elsewhere. Therefore, for the purposes of the current v3 EH server, 4 way is a poorly designed map.

I believe we have a version of lila_panic that is similar to the vanilla one you mention, you can perhaps add me on steam and we can test it on v3 to see if players like it or not. (link to my profile in my description)

Regarding 4way it is still a popular map, you may not like it but others do which is why it is played so often. You can easily hunt alone even if the server is neatly full, you just need to go to the right places. We are not going to remove 4way as of now as it is still one of the most played maps.
 

bobbydole

Member
23 May 2018
6
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3
what about another V3 server but with special maps only, and you can request the admins to play a regular map

Zombie Hunting V3 by ElitE HunterZ |Special Maps|
 

easy

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Hello Shake3012,

thanks for your suggestions!
liltown_fixed is among special maps but doesnt support 64 spawns so it cant be in nomination list and can only be played/loaded if server is half full. I like this windmill map too^^
lila_panic_v2 is among specal maps too, but we already got 2 lila maps in nomination list.

will test the other maps soon, probably next week when I am back home :)

I have some more maps in mind that might be added to nomination list and will have a talk to the admin team about it soon!
 
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Shake3012

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29 May 2019
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Hello Shake3012,

thanks for your suggestions!
liltown_fixed is among special maps but doesnt support 64 spawns so it cant be in nomination list and can only be played/loaded if server is half full. I like this windmill map too^^
lila_panic_v2 is among specal maps too, but we already got 2 lila maps in nomination list.

will test the other maps soon, probably next week when I am back home :)

I have some more maps in mind that might be added to nomination list and will have a talk to the admin team about it soon!
But how about New server with 32 players,or or make v1 for 32 players, anyway there is always a little online. I noticed people like classic maps, they often play on them judging by the v3 server, it’s 32 players who have a lot of cool classic maps, maybe it will attract people:) Sorry for english:D
 

wayne7660

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Shake3012

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JUNIOЯ'

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Hey, I'm writing this to propose some new maps for the V3

Before putting the maps that follow, I first look if it was not already present (Nominate and Special), then I tested them to see if it could suit the server.
(I do not look at all the posts on this topic to know if they have already been proposed or not, if that's the case I apologize for it)

4 have caught my attention :

-
zm_xmind_official_v1 (64 slots)
- zm_runforyourlife (60 slots)
- zm_wp_abandon_mall_b9b (64 slots)
- zm_an_2worlds (64 slots)

As I said, the map "zm_runforyourlife" can accommodate 60 slots, I still decided to propose it because there are always players who remain as spectators for hours without playing (between 5 and 10 most often )

Otherwise, these 4 maps are adequate for the server

- No staggering hiding places
- Ability to win by being both zombie and human
- Some secrets for the "zm_wp_abandon_mall_b9b" but easy to take in being zombie

I find that these maps can have a good place in the nominate list, it will bring some new features

I repeat myself, I have tested it before writing this topic, I do not like to propose "broken / useless stuff", and I know you will test them to see if they can agree :)

Thanks for reading, JR
 
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NorthernLight

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zm_runforyourlife.. what a good old map <3
 

SOUR

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If I told you, I'd have to kill you.
We tried zm_wp_abandon_mall_b9b but alot of players rtv'd it so its on special maps atm i think? also some OP spots that needed som fixes. the rest im gonna take a look at :)

Runforyourlife looks nice, i remember this map! +1
 
Last edited:

DeltaForce

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I could have a look into it, from 60 to 64 Spawns and some small changes at some Spots.
 

JUNIOЯ'

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Thank you for the quick answers.

For the list of maps (V1, V3, SPECIALS) I referred to Havoc's response to the list of all the maps (up to date) I requested, page 29

REGULAR MAPS ON V1:

zm_4way_fix_v2c
zm_azduextincion_acp_v3_fix
zm_cbble_eh
zm_corps_v9_edited
zm_eh_anzio_final
zm_eh_fast_final_2018
zm_eh_forgotten_town_v2
zm_eh_palace_final_fix4
zm_eh_pavlov_v4
zm_eh_solo
zm_highschool_day
zm_lila_panic_revisited_b4
zm_marbble_v2_edit
zm_office_outbreak_htrs
zm_officeattack_b5a
zm_origin_v2
zm_rush_final_4

REGULAR MAPS ON V3

zm_16chambers
zm_4way_fix_v2c
zm_an_kapras
zm_canals_classic_eh_v1
zm_cbble_eh
zm_clouds_v2_1
zm_corps_v9_edited
zm_crazycity
zm_dust_hunt_v1b
zm_eh_despair_v3
zm_eh_fast_final_2018
zm_eh_filth_v6_fix
zm_eh_forgotten_town_v2
zm_eh_palace_final_fix4
zm_eh_pavlov_v4
zm_eh_prison_tower_fix
zm_fail_inc_fix
zm_farm3_nav72_unlim
zm_hellarch_fix_edit_v1
zm_highschool_day
zm_huntingpark_v2
zm_industrial_waste_v1_8_1
zm_jay_legend_fixed_v4a
zm_legends_v1
zm_lila_panic_revisited_b4
zm_little_city_v7_roy
zm_little_italy_v3
zm_marbble_eh_v1
zm_mystic_halls_b3
zm_neko_athletic_park_v3
zm_office_house_v2
zm_officerush_b8
zm_origin_v2
zm_roy_highway_fix4
zm_rush_final_4
zm_temple_v2
zm_undergrounds_eh_v1
zm_westwood_final
zm_zomb_eh_towers_v5_fix

SPECIAL MAPS THAT YOU CAN REQUEST THE ADMINS TO PLAY

zm_16chambres
zm_3dubka_v3a
zm_aftermatch
zm_an_canals_classic
zm_atix_helicopter
zm_atix_panic_eh_v1
zm_band!t_facility_v3
zm_base_day
zm_blockfort_v3_1
zm_bucket_v7
zm_bunker_v1
zm_cbble_eh_v2
zm_cbble_eh_xmas_v1
zm_cbble_halloween_v1b
zm_christmas_aspen_v2c
zm_cocktail_v3
zm_countdown
zm_desertprodigy_b3
zm_desprerados_a1
zm_dh_jay_legend_fixed_v3
zm_dino_day_v1a
zm_docks_v1
zm_dolls_slayer_eh_v1
zm_dust2_64_v1
zm_eh_anzio_final_v1
zm_eh_beltot_v1
zm_eh_breakout_v2
zm_eh_cabu_final
zm_eh_castle_defense_v3
zm_eh_deathlyhunting
zm_eh_defend_thy_self_v1
zm_eh_desert_towers_v4
zm_eh_diersville_v1
zm_eh_exposed_v2
zm_eh_holdout_v2
zm_eh_italyarena
zm_eh_killhouse_v1
zm_eh_last_stand_v1
zm_eh_lasthope_final
zm_eh_laugh_v1
zm_eh_neon_v2
zm_eh_nuketunnelc_v1
zm_eh_pavlov_v4
zm_eh_rallemaze_v1
zm_eh_sandhunt_v2
zm_eh_scrapyard_final
zm_eh_shinu_v3
zm_eh_siege_v1
zm_eh_solo
zm_eh_tr_abandoned_panic_v4_fix
zm_eh_tr_office_v2
zm_eh_tr_vault_v3
zm_eh_tr_vitron_v2
zm_eh_upsidedown_v7
zm_examen_eh
zm_fail_inc_fix
zm_firewall_samarkand
zm_floating_rock_v5
zm_fubar_towers_v5
zm_highschool_night_v1
zm_hillbilly_backyard_v4
zm_hoejhus_eh_1
zm_hoook_v5
zm_illmination_eh
zm_italy_reload_fix
zm_kobi_panic
ZM_Krusty_krab_a3
zm_lego_land
zm_lila_173_fix
zm_lila_beach_fix_2
zm_lila_epic_v2_1b
zm_lila_neighbour
zm_lila_panic_eh_v2
zm_lila_panic_quick_fw_fixed
zm_liltown_fixed
zm_london_v1_0
zm_marbble_eh_v2
zm_mario3_v4_finals
zm_monastery_v1_1
zm_moonlight_v3
zm_neko_abura_v2
zm_neko_athletic_park_v3
zm_neko_athletic_xmas_fix
zm_office_house_v2
zm_piranesi_b1
zm_playtime
zm_poorland_b1
zm_pripyat
zm_quarantine_b4
zm_roflicious_b1
zm_roy_highway_fix2
zm_rush_final_4
zm_shazzgarden
zm_siberia_v2_64a
zm_smallmap_eh_v4
zm_sorrento_v3
zm_super_mario_v3
zm_tmo_arena_v2h
zm_tower_of_resistance_v4
zm_unpanic_v2
zm_valley
zm_vampire_medical_v3
zm_veskerland_v1_1
zm_walled_city_v1_1
zm_zmso_fix
zm_zombiecruise_fixed

It's not easy to put something new on a server that works very well (we will not lie), when players are used to playing the same maps in a row, when there is something new, it loses all these landmarks..

Look, the "zm_16chambers" or "zm_4away" is not particularly appreciated (Too many hiding places for one and much too big for the other ..) but they resist since they are very often nominated
Some like the "zm_legends_v1" does not resist, but it is still in the list nominate..

As I often say, it's easy to say, but you'd have to sort, whether in the "nominate" or "special" list, it will allow everyone to navigate and avoid nominating "detested" maps

For me, there are maps that I have never seen play, because they are often the same ones that turn in loop ..

Aside: I was able to play on the "zm_pripyat" (Special map), it was kind of like "nahg i like the map just bad playground" "well i think ur right..this map sucks" "there is nothing, not good spots, not secret, not good textures"
Would be the kind of map to remove (my opinion)

To return to my post, the "zm_wp_abandon_mall_b9b" has a lot of barricades, but the map is quite wide. Like every first round, when a player gets killed because he has not found the right place he is sure he will be discontented (especially if it's a new map in his eyes) so he goes rtv to return to his "comfort zone" by naming a map he knows

This map contains secrets, like teleporter, but it is as accessible in human as in zombie when one knows or it is of course
I find it fantastic for the "hunting", you go back to each store to find the zombies, all the players shoot at the barricades making it a tsunami of objects :')

You have to know how to take risks, but that's not what will make the players run away ^^
 
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SOUR

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If I told you, I'd have to kill you.
Used to play it on I3d back in the days with 64 players went fine, You acess the roofs! dont judge until you tried it ;) and it's not small i promise you haha its actually kinda big